1997/12/10 00:29
kundalini-l-d Digest V97 #808
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 808
Today's Topics:
Kundalini and the Beast [ "Roberto Gonzales del Valle" <rgvgATnospam ]
RE: A Chip Question? [ Mike Stickles <msticklesATnospamantalys.co ]
Re: 3 Piercings (was Re: Enlightenme [ Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant ]
Re: Thirty Three [ Meadowart <MeadowartATnospamaol.com> ]
kundalini meditation [ RKarl89203 <RKarl89203ATnospamaol.com> ]
AutoPost from Kundalini Resource Cen [ (un)leash <drmarcialATnospamaol.com> ]
Re: 3 Piercings (was Re: Enlightenme [ Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.co ]
*Lord Matraiya* [ DonBBenson <DonBBensonATnospamaol.com> ]
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 15:39:37 PST
From: "Roberto Gonzales del Valle" <rgvgATnospamhotmail.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Kundalini and the Beast
Message-ID: <19971209233938.17543.qmailATnospamhotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Hello everyone:
I´m very concerned about a post I just read on the list. It said, with
total freshness, that the book of revelations is a metaphor for
Kundalini and that the Beast is the heart of the one living in K. (I{m
sorry i can´t quote it but i deleted it as soon as i finished reading).
This is a very dangerous remark. There are a lot of punishments in the
book of revelations for the Beast and all it´s followers. And the
revelations in the Bible had come to real one by one!
I´m more oriented on thinking of K as the other side of the coin the
Bible says something like the Beast will arrive from the sea like a
dragon with 7 heads or so, I´m sorry Haven´t got the Book right here
with me but I pretty much remember that part. Well I´m giving it some
though right now and DNA strain is similar to two snakes right?. That´s
two heads. Well, with genes mutations as in what is happening now, DNA
could maybe have a breakdown and get more that two heads, we could even
read well the book, Revelations, Chap 13, versicle 18, and try to find
out what does numerollogy has to say about the number of head of the
beast.
BUT IN CASE SOMEONE REALLY KNOWS AND CAN CONNECT SOME OF OUR PRACTICES
WITH SOMETHING ANTI-GOD PLEASE RESPOND WELL COHERENT OF COURSE, NOT JUST
TO PREVENT FROM THE FALL OF AN OLD TYPE OF BELIEVE SYSTEM.
You now everyone my best wishes are for you and my loved ones, please be
good to your brother. I DO believe we are the begining of a new
generation, the gate of a new era we can{t even visualice. But we got to
be carefull, The Center is alwasys surrounded by the Laberinth. Let´s
not get lost!
Roberto.
Lima-Perú
______________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:12:27 -0500
From: Mike Stickles <msticklesATnospamantalys.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: RE: A Chip Question?
Message-ID: <B982B2DC7C0ED111804600805F850AB219F0E7ATnospamEX-DENVER-U1>
Content-Type: text/plain
The only current use of such a device that I am aware
of is in cattle. Chips are embedded in them (I think in
the ear) and a device scans them as the cattle pass
through a gate to make it easier to see if any are
missing from the herd.
The proposed uses in humans are purely conjectural
at this point. ACJ's reply mentions a few, but so far
the benefits don't seem to be worth the trouble. As
she mentions, some fundamentalist groups think that
this could be the "number of the beast" mentioned in
the book of the Revelation, but not all agree on that.
I've not heard of any UFO or New Age takes on this.
- Mike
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:32:04 -0800
From: Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu>
To: Kurt Keutzer <keutzerATnospamsynopsys.com>
CC: smacraeATnospamcamtech.net.au, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, hlutharATnospambryant.edu,
lodpressATnospamintercomm.com
Subject: Re: 3 Piercings (was Re: Enlightenment)
Message-ID: <348E2954.566EATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu>
Kurt Keutzer wrote:
> I think one difference of opinion may be based on the difference
> between prana piercing a cakra and kundalini piercing a cakra.
snip....
> >
So
> when I hear that piercing the granthas is not enough I think of a few
> possibilities. One is that what one is describing is not a piercing by
> kundalini but a piercing by prana.
> What is to be done after that? Quoting Harsh again
> ``the central practice needed is
> that of cultivating an attitude of indifference towards psychic
> abilities and various states of consciousness and remaining aware. At
> this stage celibacy is very helpful. It allows one to retain the
> Kundalini at the Sahashara [sahasrara?] and stay in Samadhi for a longer
> period.''
>
when the *kundalini* rises the mind is naturally
> drawn into samadhi.
> Yes, I am a kundalini
> bigot. Nevertheless, if I am sure about one thing it is that I am not
> enlightened so if someone can tell me what I am missing I am very willing
> to listen, but what I hear people describing sounds to me like the various
> movements of prana.
>
Harsh says:
1. The three Granthis are located in the Sushmana. They are associated
with the chakras but are not themselves chakras.
2. The three Granthis cannot be pierced by simple movements of pleasant
nerve currents through the spine. It requires the "freight train"
experiences of Kundalini on a frequent basis (several times) to break
through the Granthis. These are felt as major physical experiences.
The piercing is permanent.
3. When the Kundalini enters the Sushmana and pierces even the first
granthi, body consciousness is lost and one is in mental space.
4. An adept with an awakened Kundalini, and all three broken granthis
can make it pierce any center or bypass any center to go straight to the
Sahashara.
5. Samadhis experienced at Sahashara have their own value.
6. The regulation of sexual conduct is critical to experience full
benefits of the Shakti and to retain Samadhis for long periods.
Kundalini will stay at the crown center for a fleeting few seconds
without such discipline (even if all three granthis have been broken by
previous discipline).
7. The practice of "cultivating" indifference to various states of the
mind is not during Samadhi but during waking activities. For advanced
students, maintaining continuous self-awareness is the central practice
and all else is secondary. Meditation need not be practiced in the same
way as Samadhi becomes natural.
8. Various Superconscious experiences and Samadhi states cannot lead to
peace of mind. Without knowing the nature of the Self, peace is not
realized. Until peace of mind is gained one is not Home and remains
endlessly curious. Peace is our real nature. All the Yogas and Tantras
have only that as their end.
Harsh
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:54:36 EST
From: Meadowart <MeadowartATnospamaol.com>
To: divine_goddessATnospamHOTMAIL.COM, DonBBensonATnospamaol.com
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com, reasonsATnospamreasons.org
Subject: Re: Thirty Three
Message-ID: <8938a031.348e0477ATnospamaol.com>
Susan,
I am grateful for your efforts on behalf of those of us on the list who
would like to freely and safely discuss areas of kundalini activity in our
lives without falling prey to guerrilla evangelism.
I'm of two minds here....on the one hand I like the diversity of this k-
list population, on the other hand dogma discussions are crashingly boring
when one of the fruits of exploring this path has been that I don't feel I
have to justify (or defend against evangelists for) having one foot in eastern
philosophy and another in western...it's all one.
As the poet Rumi says, the light that falls on this wall may appear a
little different than it does on that wall, but it's the same light. We can
pull water from the river with different jugs, but it's the same water.
All experiences of God are subjective. If God ever fits into the little
boxes we make for him, I want no part of him, because he's just not big
enough. (Bend the gender to suit yourself, folks...he/she/it).
Swami Vivekananda pointed out that ''even a donkey can carry a whole
library on its back''...we can argue academic points all day and it doesn't
mean we are one iota closer to being enlightened. I don't want to be
evangelized by anybody, Christian, Hindu, or whatever.
I'm here on this list because of the energetic experiences that transcend
the boundaries of theology and bring me closer to the sublime. Some I have
come to be very comfortable with. Others, I don't understand quite yet and
the experiences of others help me along in that understanding. I want to
continue that free exchange of ideas without being cornered by folks of a
particular religious slant who feel duty-bound to have us all think just like
them and use the same buzzwords so they can feel safe in their world.
Hallelujah, Jai Bhagwan, Om Namah Shivaya. Blessed Be.
So, thanks, Susan, for sticking up for people like myself. You're aces
with me, sis.
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:37:07 EST
From: RKarl89203 <RKarl89203ATnospamaol.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: kundalini meditation
Message-ID: <681a77ed.348e1c76ATnospamaol.com>
i visited your web site--i am trying to find a safe, relaxing lifestyle to
reduce stress. Could you please tell me if u have further materials/resources
available? Thank you.
Richard Karl
P.S. I am in the Milwaukee area
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:39:58 -1000 (HST)
From: (un)leash <drmarcialATnospamaol.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: AutoPost from Kundalini Resource Center
Message-Id: <199712100339.RAA07270ATnospamhaleakala.aloha.net>
Greetings.I have been having difficulty with my "heart" center for a while now.Some background : a few months ago my fiance broke off the engagement to be with someone else. A few months before this point when we were making love, I again opened my heart to her to try to feel our energies coalesce in an open acceptance. I felt her resisting this and not wanting this sort of connection. (This was all nonverbal.) Immediately I felt a pain in my chest, in my heart center, a feeling of rejection, of love wanting to open forward but not being able to. This pain continued after we made love, and the next day, I had bronchitis. I went to an acupuncturist who treated it and told me it was due to "suppression of crying". Crisis over, but problem beneath surface. Didn't attempt this sort of opening again. This pain resurfaced when my partner left me, but was OK. However, now, I am with a partner who I feel fully wants my energy and whom I want to fully give to. When I have tried to do t!
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his, my heart center hurts even more than the previous time I had that sort of aching. I feel I have much "heart healing" to do. My partner and I just bought a book on Kundalini which recommended doing grounding work in the muladhara (?). Any advice, commentary, etc.? I have done tantra work before and experienced incredible energy flows. I love playing with the breath. This can be ecstatic ; it also seems to tap into repressed memories sometimes.
Sincerely, (un)leash
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:55:24 +0100
From: Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.com>
To: Kurt Keutzer <keutzerATnospamsynopsys.com>
CC: smacraeATnospamcamtech.net.au, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, hlutharATnospambryant1.bryant.edu,
heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com
Subject: Re: 3 Piercings (was Re: Enlightenment)
Message-ID: <348DB037.5381ATnospamintercomm.com>
Gloria notes; this is a long discussion and quite detailed, if you
aren't interested just clip out.
Kurt Keutzer wrote:
>
> >Kurt Keutzer wrote:
> >>
> >> There are those who feel that enlightenment occurs precisely from
> >the penetration of the three knots (or granthas) and those who do not.
> >Those who do not believe that kundalini plays any role in enlightenment
> >are
> >of less interest here. The most interesting group are those who believe
> >that kundalini plays a role in enlightenment but not an ultimate role.
>
> Susan Macrae responds:
> >It is my understanding and experience that enlightenment does not occur
> >merely from the penetration of the 3 granthis. My belief is that
> >Kundalini has the potential to complete a purification process of the
> >physical and subtle bodies, of which the piercing of the knots is part.
> >When the purification is complete, the energy which is known as the Holy
> >Spirit can enter in totality and remain in its full manifestation and
> >enlightenment ensues.
>
> <snip>
>
> Harsh writes:
> ''When the Kundalini has broken all three granthis and one enters
> different Samadhis through the Sahashara, the central practice needed is
> that of cultivating an attitude of indifference towards psychic
> abilities and various states of consciousness and remaining aware. At
> this stage celibacy is very helpful. It allows one to retain the
> Kundalini at the Sahashara and stay in Samadhi for a longer period. If
> one is completely calm and detached *before* going into meditation and
> the Shakti rises spontaneously and reaches the Sahashara, then through
> divine grace, it will enter the Amrita Nadi, also called the Para Nadi,
> which links the Sahashara with the Hridayam, and Kevala Nirvikalpa
> Samadhi will result.''
Gloria enters the conversation:
I am not as aware of the formal eastern descriptions of union,
enlightenment, etc. I can only share my own experience and what I find
happening in the ongoing evolement.
First there is a huge difference between the nice elating pranic or
kundalini movement that flows up the spine to just kiss the chakra's...
and what I call a full out eruption. An eruption is volcanic in energy
release and pretty much leaves the individual in a state of no-movement
for a time...or as has been said my Harsh, out of the body in the mental
plane. I consider normal kundalini movement pretty much preparation work
for what must actually manifest in its due course.I also don't talk
about this, because people tend to allow their minds to wander and fear
sets in.
I have even been put in the hospital with a full blown explosion
which... on the really good side.. allowed me to leave my body for a
good week or longer, which was wonderful.In this case I also was taken
out of my body from the force.
Other times (many other) my body became like a solid pole that doesn't
bend, this type of release leaves one again motionless, I could in no
way move my neck or bend at the waste, I could move my eyes but that is
about it. This is the poll effect when the energy is moving so
powerfully that the body becomes solid like a board. I saw it clearly in
my mind as the spine becomes literally a rod of power solid as
kundalini engulfed each chakra, this is quite uncomfortable...so
detachment is essential. This has lasted 8 hours or more in one
setting. I can't tell you how many times this has happened, I quit
counting long ago. These are both examples of eruptions. These kind of
eruptions continued in my case until I actually passed out and went out
through the crown chakra, which was a tremendous relief. I needed to
experience the explosion manifesting and extending all the way through
the top of the head. Since that manifestation, the build up was released
and things calmed down greatly. This happened maybe 20 years ago now.
I've never heard of the distinction between prana and kundalini, it
does seem that those who are experiencing that heat feeling with some
pressure, or tingling could be prana more then kundalini, that feels
right. It would be preparation work for the full release.
>
>
> Kurt responds:
>
> I think that each posting in itself represents an invaluable perspective
> but if we are to come to any consensus or common view I think it might help
> to see if we're in agreement on what is implied by kundalini piercing a
> cakra. I think one difference of opinion may be based on the difference
> between prana piercing a cakra and kundalini piercing a cakra. This gets
> back to the debate as to ``what's the difference between prana and
> kundalini?'' I cover this in my FAQ and I tend not to quote the FAQ's here
> because people can read them whenever they want and don't need me to force
> them on them but I do think what I write is relevant here:
>
> ``From the subjective standpoint of an individual actually experiencing
> the awakening of kundalini I have found three completely different
> opinions: <br>
> The first opinion is that a pranic awakening is only a prelude to a
> full kundalini awakening.
Gloria:
I agree with this. Those who I know with kundalini or what we speak of
as kundalini is so mild that it hardly represents the same factor. I
have set our whole king size bed rocking and burned the ends of my
fingers, my husband has helped me several times by just putting his arms
around me and taking the energy. He was like a Christmas tree for hours
after this, but it was very helpful. This is a calm eruption.
Kurt:
Tibetan yogins that I have encountered
> consider the activation of prana (Tibetan: rlung) as merely a
> prerequisite for the activation of kundalini (Tibetan: gTummo). What's
> attractive about this viewpoint is that it explains the difference
> between the experience of simply having pleasant sensations in the
> spine and the much more powerful experience of having a
> ``freight-train''-like full kundalini experience.
>
> The second opinion, espoused by Swami Shivom Tirth for example, is that
> prana and kundalini are absolutely equivalent and that it is not
> meaningful in any way to describe a difference between kundalini rising
> and prana rising. When posed with question as to how to distinguish
> between pleasant sensations that show some pranic-activity in the spine
> and the much more powerful experience Swami Shivom Tirth said that the
> difference is not in the nature of the activity but in the
> consciousness that observes it. If the consciousness that experiences
> the pranic activity is seated within the spine (or more correctly, the
> central channel, known as the sushumna), then the experience is felt
> much more powerfully.
Gloria:
I do agree that kundalini or prana is not what is important in this
activity, it is what it does to consciousness or the brain that is
important. The release of kundalini is for the brain in my estimation,
enlightenment manifests in the brain, this I have come to realize over
the years. It is amazing what is done in the brain and there is much
work to manifest. It isn't just charging the brain with kundalini, it is
balancing the right and left sides and it is connecting each of the
cells with its corresponding links in the body, and subtle body. This is
all about connecting, balancing, activiating on so many different
levels, this then must be brought into working capacity both in and out
of the body.
The brain is the instrument of power here, but remember you are
building a light body on several levels for true cosmic work. The brain
is what manifests in the body, the spiritual bodies/vehicles are what
make you God out of the body. What good is it just to manifest
enlightenment on this dimension, our work is mostly done in other
dimensions. And, this is just one speck of reality in the universe, & is
just the place that we bring it all together.
With the brain in transformation, each individual chakra becomes an
aspect of awareness which helps to bring the soul/spirit into direct
awareness of itself.
Non of it means anything if one doesn't fully become aware of
him/herself as the divine ingredient causing all of the goings on. It is
after all my Atman/I Am that I come to know. I Am That I Am.
I also believe none of this can occur until that consciousness exists
of being in the eternal now... in this way, realization of ones postion
to Divine Will is completely understood. There comes a time when there
is no longer two things happening inside of ones consciousness, (
duality.) It is essential that full union manifests, which means there
is only one thing left and no thought manifests from this. People think,
how could you live without thought or without self, there is nothing
besides God, therefore the only movement left is that which is in focus.
And in between there is silence.
What good does it do to be a live wire...if the wire doesn't know what
its purpose and job is at this level of the experience.
> <br>Kurt:
> The third opinion, espoused by the modern hatha yogin, Desikacar, is
> that pranic awakening is the true experience to be aimed for and
> kundalini is actually an obstruction. Desikacar sees the kundalini as a
> block in the central channel and thus the kundalini must be ``killed''
> to make way for the prana. This is the most unusual view of the three. ''
Gloria:
Never heard of that one.
Kurt:
>
> With due reverence to Swami Shivom Tirth I subscribe to the first view. So
> when I hear that piercing the granthas is not enough I think of a few
> possibilities. One is that what one is describing is not a piercing by
> kundalini but a piercing by prana. I would certainly agree that while a
> pranic piercing is a profound experience it is still not sufficient for
> enlightenment. The second possibility is the difference between kundalini
> rising through a cakra and a complete piercing of the cakra.
Gloria:
Take it a step further, it is not just the piercing but the total
balancing and tuning of the chakra to the higher frequency in the brain,
and then to the overall picture as purpose through Divine Will. The
brain is the master computer, none of the chakra's really function until
the master computer programs it to reach its full capacity. Many people
have some activity but there is so much work to accomplish to actually
turn the chakra on full power that even if they have all been activated
it doesn't mean its gone through alingment, balancing, tuning, and
charging. And, then testing...remember fruit is the essential ingredient
at the end of all of this.
Kurt:
I think most
> readers of this group must have experienced a lightning-like rising of
> kundalini all the way to the crown or sahasrara [sahashara?]. I do think
> that this is kundalini rising but I don't think this could be considered a
> piercing of the cakras. So what is a piercing? I believe a piercing is when
> there is a permanent elimination of the knot at a cakra.
Gloria:
The chakra system isn't in full use until several things have
manifested, one knows exactly the sound, color, placement, energy
frequency of each and can go to any chakra at will, moving up or down
the spine. This becomes a natural movement with color and sound, and
when it is direct movment from union it just flows through Divine will.
> Kurt:
> What is to be done after that? Quoting Harsh again
> ``the central practice needed is
> that of cultivating an attitude of indifference towards psychic
> abilities and various states of consciousness and remaining aware. At
> this stage celibacy is very helpful. It allows one to retain the
> Kundalini at the Sahashara [sahasrara?] and stay in Samadhi for a longer
> period.''
Gloria:
The individual must know the difference between psychic energy and that
of spiritual power. These aren't even similiar in nature, one still uses
a self with thought, emotions, desire, etc with psychic energy and a
self with emotions, thoughts, etc. And the other is total union with
Divine Will. And in this the duality dissolves.
> Kurt:
> or according to Gloria:
> ``One must become
> so aware of that inner process that the natural movement is always to
> divine will.''
> Kurt:
> In my limited experience, when the *kundalini* rises the mind is naturally
> drawn into samadhi. Kundalini has only been at my sahasrara for brief
> periods of time but during these times I experienced a total unity with the
> entire universe. In these brief periods thoughts were too pitiful and
> insignificant to influence the state in any way. Thus there was no issue
> of cultivating attitudes. When one's awareness has merged with the entire
> universe (or at least that is the subjective experience) then what is the
> meaning of cultivating awareness or becoming aware of the divine will? And
> since the universe is comprehended by one's own consciousness where would
> the Holy Spirit come from and where would it go?
Gloria:
There is a difference between sitting in a meditation and experiencing
Samadhi and being an instrument of Divine Will and living in a state of
being.
There comes a time that the purpose of the process isn't for your
evolvement but for the purpose of God. If your focus is off of the self,
and there is no self left, then the only thing that exists is purpose,
not yours but that of higher purpose which you now are absorbed into, it
manifests in movement as Divine Will.
Divine Will is that manifest reality that transcends space and time.
So, in order to live in Samadhi one must live in Divine Will.
> Kurt:
> But this is just my experience - no more no less. I don't think there is
> anything definitive about it and I hope people don't feel that I am trying
> to play a ``my experience is superior to yours'' game. However, I cannot
> resolve these other postings with my experience. Yes, I am a kundalini
> bigot. Nevertheless, if I am sure about one thing it is that I am not
> enlightened so if someone can tell me what I am missing I am very willing
> to listen, but what I hear people describing sounds to me like the various
> movements of prana.
Gloria:
What is missing is that selflessness. You are speaking from an I, I
think, I want, etc. When you have fully entered Samadhi, there is no
self to do anything with. I live from the Crown Chakra, the energy never
drops because it has its home in the petals. Even when I charge lower
chakra's it never leaves the Crown since the petals is where kundalini
comes to rest and the whole system is one whole manifestation of Divine
Love and Will. If this is called enlightenment, God Realization, or some
kind of Samadhi...I really don't know or care. It just what is
manifesting in my life.
>
> Harsh says:
> ``The debates and explanations are endless. There are countless Samadhis
> and Superconscious states but only a few reveal the nature of the Self.''
>
> But I think that if we can each speak openly about our experiences then
> perhaps we can all come to a more comprehensive view of this profound process.
>
> May all beings find comfort and joy!
> Kurt
Interesting communication...Gloria
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher.
Gloria Joy Greco
e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at:
http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/
&
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/
Hope you enjoy them!
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:28:50 EST
From: DonBBenson <DonBBensonATnospamaol.com>
To: dorf01ATnospammail.win.org, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: *Lord Matraiya*
Message-ID: <679f1ce.348e36cfATnospamaol.com>
In a message dated 97-12-09 16:38:34 EST, dorf01ATnospammail.win.org writes:
<< i suppose closer to my paradign would be Harsha, since our paths kinda
came out of the vendantic tradition.
>>
Dear Debora,
I'm about ready to start a Harsha fan club, okay? Really, the man definitely
knows his stuff.
Since we've about exhausted poor old Empress Theodora, may I change the
subject?
In the 1920s, Iya Tolstoy (grandson of Leo) was my father's roommate at Iowa
State. They became lifelong friends. When the Allies needed someone to trek
through Tibet in the early forties and work out an overland supply route to
China, they sent Ilya Tolstoy. After his notes and photographs were
declassified in the early 1950s, Ilya Tolstoy published an article in National
Geographic which featured his visit with the young Dalai Lama and various holy
places of Tibetan Buddhism. When Dad showed me this article, what especially
caught my attention was the depiction of *Lord Matraiya* -- the buddha
prophesied to rule over the paradise of the future. What I have been thinking
all these years is that Hopis, Buddhists, Jews, Christians, and others are all
awaiting the same One in different translations of the Name and different
cultural traditions. What do you think?
>From your Buddhist studies and meditations, what can you tell us about Lord
Matraiya? Who is he? When, where, and how is he honored and expected?
Don
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