1997/12/02 13:47
kundalini-l-d Digest V97 #782
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 782
Today's Topics:
Re: tantric schools (was Urddhavaret [ Kurt Keutzer <keutzerATnospamsynopsys.com> ]
AutoPost from Kundalini Resource Cen [ Allison <abradleyATnospamprodigy.net> ]
AutoPost from Kundalini Resource Cen [ Allison <abradleyATnospamprodigy.net> ]
Re: tantric schools (was Urddhavaret [ "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.or ]
Harsh's Paper [ "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.or ]
Re: Harsh's Paper [ ori^ <oriATnospameskimo.com> ]
Dieter/formal apology [ Gloria <glorybeATnospamintrepid.net> ]
Re: loving one another [ Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.co ]
Re: Greetings.... [ Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.co ]
Re: The truth will out - formal apol [ Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.co ]
Re: Greetings.... [ Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.co ]
Re: Harsh's Paper [ "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.or ]
Curiosity [ "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.or ]
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 11:13:34 -0800
From: Kurt Keutzer <keutzerATnospamsynopsys.com>
To: "Harsh K. Luthar" <hlutharATnospambryant1.bryant.edu>,
kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Cc: keutzerATnospamsynopsys.com
Subject: Re: tantric schools (was Urddhavareta)
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971202111333.00f31f38ATnospampcpo-1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:29 PM 12/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Kurt: I hope the following helps.
>
>In the Yogic and Tantric cultures The Samaya School is known as the
>"Right Handed Path" while the Kaula School is referred to as the "Left
>handed path." The practices associated with the two paths are
>historically established and tend to differ.
Sounds good to me.
>
>Book knowledge may be useful and does not preclude an interest in
>practice. Practice is, however, more important in understanding the
>subtle truths of the Mind and the Kundalini Shakti.
Ditto.
>
>When the Kundalini is awakened (and it may be awakened by a single
>method or a combination of methods) it seems to shoot up with a huge
>force due to blockages in the Sushmana. If conduct with regards to
>sensuality, food and sleep is regulated, all the granthis are broken in
>due time. The flow of Kundalini then becomes smooth. Different Samadhis
>and Superconscious states are normal at this stage. The experience of
>such states makes one aware of different aspects of life (celestial and
>otherwise) but does not resolve the fundamental mystery of existence. In
>higher stages Kundalini Yoga merges with Jnana Yoga and leads to
>enlightenment.
>From my perspective this is a view that represents a moderning co-opting of
the kundalini yogas by Jnana Yoga. The co-opting by Raja Yoga is another
variant. In this approach kundalini yoga is seen as a preparation for
higher yogas. (I don't mean to put words in your mouth but this is how the
story usually goes.) Matsyendranath, Gorakshanath and other advocates of
the path of kundalini yoga exposited a complete system of realization
without recourse to Jnana or Raja yoga. This is not to say that the
embedding of kundalini yogas into other philosophical frameworks cannot
result in a powerful system. The Shri Vidya tradition is one successful
example and contemporary Tibetan Buddhism is another.
>
>To associate Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi with the breaking of Granthis is
>considered an error in Jnana Yoga.
I think it's comments like this that begin to get us onto slippery
territory. It's not that what you're saying is unprecedented it's that I
don't know where you're coming from (i.e. from what tradition you are
speaking) when you say it.
Breaking of the granthis is a
>necessary but not a sufficient condition for Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi.
>Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi is not an achievement or an attainment but
>simply a Recognition of who you really are. After I opened my eyes from
>that Samadhi, I simply thought, "Of course, It is only ME! What did I
>expect?" And I got up and went about my normal routine.
My understanding is that Nirvikalpa Samadhi means a permanent rootedness in
the state of samadhi while engaging in all activities. This implies, among
other things, a wakefulness even in the deepest sleep and a luminosity
through a very brief and superficial dream state. Is this what you're
experiencing?
>
>In my paper, I have addressed the issue of a partially awakened
>Kundalini which may be helpful for understanding the phenomena in its
>totality. This is a highly complex topic to explain because people
>experience different aspects of the Kundalini depending on their latent
>physical and psychological tendencies and past practices. Hence the
>confusion in this field is wholly justified as genuine authorities tend
>to differ from each other.
Excellent point. One of the things I/we are trying to accomplish on this
listserver is serve as something of a clearinghouse for these perspectives.
People tend to treat their own experience and tradition as the only and
final authority.
Therefore, it follows that one should
>practice until One Sees One Self with One's own Self.
>
>I do not know how I can be more detailed than this on e-mail. In the
>future I will publish in depth the nature of my experiences and perhaps
>that will be helpful to some.
There is no doubt that this will be valuable to me and others.
If you'd like to make it more valuable then you might speak about the
tradition that you practice, who your teachers are, what classical
scripture that you consider authorative and by what means you have
confirmed your enlightenment. You don't have to do this of course and I and
other will read what you have to say. However, there is someone posting
every week or so with some ``authorative'' opinion on a topic. Too many
times I've perservered as to the source of these only to learn the source
was:``well my father used to have a Swami come over to the house'' or
``there was a guy who came to talk at the local bookstore''. So you have
the opportunity to distinguish yourself from those if you like.
Somewhat less often, but still regularly, we have posters who are
Bodhisattvas who have achieved the 7th Bodhisattvabhumi or practitioners
who have pierced all the granthis or yogis with other levels of high
attainment. It may all be true but since I know just a little bit about the
results that attend such attainments and how rare they are I typically
just put these things in the ``for future consideration'' pile. Now if
someone came forward with an attainment that bore all the marks specified
in the oral traditions and in the classical literature and had that
attainment verified by a living master - now that would be something one
should really perk up about. Kevala (kaivalya?) nirvikalpa samadhi is a
great attainment and I sincerely hope this is your living reality. If so I
believe you have joined a handful of yogins on the earth who have achieved
this. But because of the rarity of this attainment I hope you will
understand my skepticism (but not cynicism!).
Finally, let's be sure not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. While
I question some of your assertions it is clear that you are working on the
path and have a real value to bring to this group. I hope that doesn't get
lost in the shuffle.
Mangalam
Kurt
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:35:08 -1000 (HST)
From: Allison <abradleyATnospamprodigy.net>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: AutoPost from Kundalini Resource Center
Message-Id: <199712021935.JAA22742ATnospamhaleakala.aloha.net>
I experienced a disturbing, "spontaneous" (in conjunction with several major life changes and lots of meditation in attempts to deal with them) kundalini experience December of last year through March of this year. I had no idea what was happening and became nearly nonfunctional. Later, I learned about the concept of kundalini and have since worked to integrate my "new" self with a new lifestyle. This is challenging...to say the least.
Can anyone recommend practitioners, gurus, resources, or other guidance for someone like myself? I don't do yoga, but do meditate, and
am very interested in making some constructive use of my newly broadened abilities. I would especially appreciate hearing from people
who have had similar experiences. Thanks.
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:36:28 -1000 (HST)
From: Allison <abradleyATnospamprodigy.net>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: AutoPost from Kundalini Resource Center
Message-Id: <199712021936.JAA23286ATnospamhaleakala.aloha.net>
I experienced a disturbing, "spontaneous" (in conjunction with several major life changes and lots of meditation in attempts to deal with them) kundalini experience December of last year through March of this year. I had no idea what was happening and became nearly nonfunctional. Later, I learned about the concept of kundalini and have since worked to integrate my "new" self with a new lifestyle. This is challenging...to say the least.
Can anyone recommend practitioners, gurus, resources, or other guidance for someone like myself? I don't do yoga, but do meditate, and
am very interested in making some constructive use of my newly broadened abilities. I would especially appreciate hearing from people
who have had similar experiences. Thanks.
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:50:23 -0600 (CST)
From: "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.org>
To: Kurt Keutzer <keutzerATnospamsynopsys.com>
cc: "Harsh K. Luthar" <hlutharATnospambryant1.bryant.edu>,
kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: tantric schools (was Urddhavareta)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971202133651.2739B-100000ATnospamwinc0>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Kurt Keutzer wrote:
> Somewhat less often, but still regularly, we have posters who are
> Bodhisattvas who have achieved the 7th Bodhisattvabhumi or practitioners
> who have pierced all the granthis or yogis with other levels of high
> attainment.
way cool enuf reason to stick around then :) .
have you seen the
way
the spring flowers
dried
up this
winter?
sleeping
it off
for
next spring.
coming at you
thru a new
wave of dizzies
and wierd waves
as this
little blockage friend
of mine
finds her
peace....
om ah hung vajra guru padme siddhi hung!
--dao
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:55:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.org>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Harsh's Paper
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971202135352.2739C-100000ATnospamwinc0>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hi,
Would some soul be so kind as to tell me where Harsh's paper is on the
Web. i thought i looked inthe right spot, the kundalini resource page, but
i do not know the title i am looking for.
Thank You,
--dao
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 12:04:46 -0800
From: ori^ <oriATnospameskimo.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Cc: "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.org>
Subject: Re: Harsh's Paper
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971202120446.007d5910ATnospammail.eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The Spiritual Experience and the Awakening of
Kundalini Shakti in Tantra Yoga:
Meditation and Pranayama In the Context of Love and Sensuality
by Harshacharya
is currently available on 3 sites, 1 of which is:
http://www.eskimo.com/~ori/luthar.html
the kundalini resource page-- the European mirror site (I believe)
and on Freda's home page.
(I don't currently have the other 2 URL's at hand)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 15:09:28 -0500
From: Gloria <glorybeATnospamintrepid.net>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Dieter/formal apology
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971202150928.006e9d38ATnospamintrepid.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dieter...the truths you present to us are very precious and valuable. Your
*mistakes* are also. I love you. Thank you for your *poetry* in all its
many forms. Gloria Lee
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 11:27:26 +0100
From: Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.com>
To: anandajyoti <anandajyotiATnospamgeocities.com>
CC: Mike Stickles <msticklesATnospamantalys.com>, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: loving one another
Message-ID: <3483E28D.6E9DATnospamintercomm.com>
anandajyoti wrote:
>
> Gloria Greco wrote:
In responce to your input here, time is certainly a testing devise for
most, isn't it? Humans want everything to made right, now... and the
concept of patience is the sooner the better, I have things to do. In
this frequency, blame, fear, and mistrust just seem to grow without
limits.
But, so much in coming into harmony with another person is finding that
inner rhythmn which harmonizes perfectly with the other person. In this
union which is not of mind or emotion, it suddenly appears that problems
that were huge, dissolve. This acceptance, understanding, love, and
tolerance, really creates miracles. Because one doesn't have to prove a
point, or be right about anything, one only needs to accept.
When an individual can accept that the other person isn't doing anything
to them, but instead it is the natural static that occurs when two
people come together to live and act/react, then the larger picture is
grasped and the understanding isn't so personal. Because, in truth what
does occur when any two people come together to live in close quarters,
not to mention in the same bed, then the frequencies must either detach
and let go to flow, or they become at odds. I always remind my children
and friends that adjustment to frequencies is the first major step, it
even enters one fiances, how money flows, etc. This is something that
time will bring into balance if both parties have the will to go forward
with a positive out look. Is this what you mean? Gloria
> Anandajyoti Writes:
>
> The comments which Mike shared are so true in my understanding, and that
> for towo even get that sexual balance takes time, if love is strong
> between the cpuple.Without commitment ,I don't think even love itself
> works. Does it? I may be wrong here.Please correct me if I am wrong.
> Many a realtionship does seem to fall apart, when two are harmonious in
> all levels except the physical. In my humble opinion, I think, that the
> body being the grossest of all our levels, takes quite some time to
> adjust. Our bodies do not become responsive just as fast as our minds,
> emotions and feelings, do. I also think, that if the two in the
> relationships have a difference of opinion, or understanding in this
> aspect, then also a realtionship may fall apart. That is why , I think,
> open communication of each others fears , doubts, need to be taken care
> of even before, a relationship becomes physical.
> A harmony of understanding of each other in all respects, takes one a
> long way, through time, of course, and allows the relationship to grow
> from the seed to a very strong tree, which even elephants, will not not
> be able to tear apart.
>
> But many do not understand the time factor required, and possibly run
> away from it all, when they face even a tinge of disharmony at the
> physical level.
> Please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding here.
>
> Anandajyoti
> http://www.geocities.com/Atehns/Forum/6782
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher.
Gloria Joy Greco
e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at:
http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/
&
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/
Hope you enjoy them!
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 12:00:45 +0100
From: Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.com>
To: "Diepenbroek, Leticia van" <DiepenbrATnospamuss.uniworld.nl>
CC: heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Greetings....
Message-ID: <3483EA5B.2660ATnospamintercomm.com>
Diepenbroek, Leticia van wrote:
>
> Dearest Gloria:
>
> Thank you for your "supportive" reply to my experiences, however I do not
> quite understand the "Third aspect of God" and how should I see the Holy
> Spirit embracing my three children.
>
> I am a catholic, I do believe in Mother Mary and Christ, however for me the
> Holy Spirit is the traditional "Dove" next to the "Father" and "Son".......
Ok, good question... Gloria here:
The Holy Spirit is also what you experience as kundalini, however, from
your Catholic background, the third person of God is literally the
comforter, that part of God that is inside of an individual and
literally teaches and guides the person through out the awakening
process, you can feel the Holy Spirit as presence, you can see it inside
as light and also as sound.
It is the Holy Spirit that takes the Higher Self into knowing, while
showing you your shadow, ego/self, and empowering you to use spiritual
tools in taking care of what is happening.
Now, it is my inner training that the Holy Spirit is the femine nature
of God, again kundalini right, and it is here the Divine Mother that
literally does the training in the body and prepares the body for
working with the Christ as the Son and in coming into the knowing of the
highest asepct of Godhead, the Father, (Crown Chakra)
So you see the father and mother work to manifest and create the
spiritual body of the Son/Daughter the Christ. You will dream about your
Christ self through out your awakening.It is always somebody very
important that you must take care of. You may forget for a time about
this precious one but you are reminded again and again.
Why? This is who you can be, your potential... as God, but you must
grow into God. God Realization doesn't come until that tiny child is
allowed to grown into an adult so at this appointed hour you can
remember...man know thyself.
Does this help?
>Leticia:
> Just a comment about a Mail I read on the list......Can "K" get out of
> control and cause mental diseases??? Is this only in case "K" is awaken when
> the person is not ready? or when the Heart is not the Center? or when the
> person in question does not have any guidence??
Gloria:
It can any number of things, karma for sure, lack of focus, lack of
ability to detach, confusion, fear, etc. This is when a teacher really
is important so that someone carries the negative energy away from the
soul, a teacher will absorb it and eliminate it, and then the person can
do the centering necessary to gain access into the heart. The problem is
that the selfless pure teachers are not readily available, and are
indeed rare.
Don't be concerned with this, you are fine and everything is on course.
>Leticia:
> Love you Gloria.
>
> Leticia...I love you also. Gloria
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher.
Gloria Joy Greco
e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at:
http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/
&
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/
Hope you enjoy them!
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 12:10:06 +0100
From: Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.com>
To: Dieter Dambiec <d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu.au>
CC: "'kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com'" <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Re: The truth will out - formal apology
Message-ID: <3483EC8B.12D9ATnospamintercomm.com>
Dieter Dambiec wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ruth Trimble [SMTP:trimbleATnospamhawaii.edu]
>
> Dear amckeon: and List members:
> Thank you for your thoughtful posts about Dieter. I guess you saw a side
> of him I had been sensing for a while but never put my finger on it.
> [Dd>] Hmm, I thought I already made my apology. But anyway here is a
> formal one.
>
> Dear K-listers
>
> After some further thought and consultation with my beloved wife, I think a
> better apology is due from me regarding my silly comments to Ruth Trimble.
> I should have thought more about what I was writing and am sorry for any
> harm caused to her. I should have thought carefully before putting words
> to 'paper' and to remember to see the reflection of our loving Creator in
> all forms. Also, I of course only hurt myself by making such comments. So
> I truly apologise to Ruth and to anyone else for not thinking twice about
> what I was writing.
Gloria here;
It takes a big person with true inner connection to apologize, it is
all a part of the dance, and I'm sure Ruth will take it that way. Life
is the teacher, and indeed some times the buttons gets pushed without
you even knowing it. All is well, that is all that needs to be said.
Gloria
>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 11:45:46 +0100
From: Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.com>
To: QwartzATnospamaol.com
CC: heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Greetings....
Message-ID: <3483E6D8.42FFATnospamintercomm.com>
QwartzATnospamaol.com wrote:
>
> In my previous ramblings, I forgot to answer your other question:
>
> In a message dated 97-12-02 01:06:12 EST, you write:
>
> << However, if you are
> not prepared spiritually to understand what you meet out on the line so
> to say, then you need to do that work before willing yourself out of
> body. Do you understand what I'm saying to you? >>
>
> Yes. Right now I'm trusting that God and all that is divine and good will
> protect me from any lower/negative things I may encounter while out there.
> But perhaps I don't have a full understanding of what is really out there.
>
> <<The reason
> you had a couple of unpleasant experiences is due to not being totally
> prepared. What I advise is that you reflect on where you see yourself
> with God. If you can safely surrender to your creator, knowing that God
> will carrying you forward, building a direct relationship, then there is
> nothing that you will not be prepared to handle.>>
>
> So is it possible that even though I feel a strong connection w/God and even
> though I call on him for protection from such things that I may still be
> taken by surprise (caught of guard so to speak) by what's out there and have
> an unpleasant experience?
>
> Many Blessings
> Pam
Gloria here:
I answered this in the last post, I felt this conversation was
missing, but this inner knowing has to become very strong. You must know
that God is with you and that because of this, NOTHING CAN HARM YOU,
EVEN IF YOU ARE TESTED WHILE OUT OF THE BODY, GOD IS WITHIN YOU AS
ABSOLUTE KNOWING AND GOD IS OUTSIDE YOU AS PRESENCE, THAT INNER AND
OUTER PRESENCE SIMPLY CARRIES YOU IN ALL SITUATIONS.
Those lower forms are only trying to interfere with the process, they
can't, but in a true sense they are teachers because they help you to
understand who you are, what power is yours from being directly
connected to God, and it helps you to confront yourself, ego, thoughts,
etc. So, while you might not like this ugly critters, don't think for a
moment that they aren't being used for your awakening, they play a very
important part in the process.
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher.
Gloria Joy Greco
e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at:
http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/
&
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/
Hope you enjoy them!
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:16:09 -0600 (CST)
From: "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.org>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Harsh's Paper
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971202141120.6255B-100000ATnospamwinc0>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Thank you Ori!
Found it that time!
a piece
of peace
to place
in a spot
of peace
to you.
"fire goes
in the
fire
heart
not in
the
liver"
(my massage therapist to me as she was helping me w/an energy knot that
wont budge, it made a verse :))
--dao
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:31:08 -0600 (CST)
From: "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.org>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Curiosity
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.971202142543.6255E-100000ATnospamwinc0>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Curious Georgette here. (ok curious Janpa)
I'm a student of Tibetan Buddhism. So i'm *sorta* famillier with the 4
classes of tantras & such things like that. Make that Newbie with a
capital N.
my Q is, how do they differ/not differ from Vendantic (cant think of a
better word) systems of thought that i keep seeing mentioned.
Do things like atiyoga make sense to those schools?
Does one, like we do, have to take special vows and follow your guru's
advice.
At one time i heard the 4 types of non-buddhist yogas as Hatha, Bhakti,
Raja and Karma. or breath, love, 'will' and action. Shouldn't say
non-buddhist, maybe 'tradtional'. Forgive me, i know not completly of what
i speak :).
without getting too far into things that are secrets, is someone able to
answer in a general way?
Thanks!
--dao
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