1997/11/09 20:16
kundalini-l-d Digest V97 #741
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 741
Today's Topics:
Re: Thoughts [ "Sharon Webb" <shawebbATnospamyhc.edu> ]
Re: unsubsribe [ Rebecca Sarinelli <snelliATnospamsonic.net ]
Re: Thoughts [ BedawnedATnospamaol.com ]
Re: Thoughts free will [ BedawnedATnospamaol.com ]
Re: dante?/Angelique-Help anyone?? [ dante rosati <danteATnospampop.interport.n ]
Re: Thoughts [ Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant ]
Re: Thoughts [ merlinATnospampnn.com ]
Re: dante?/Angelique-Help anyone?? [ Rik Wallace <rik_wATnospamrocketmail.com> ]
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:12:47 -0500
From: "Sharon Webb" <shawebbATnospamyhc.edu>
To: <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Message-Id: <199711091823.NAA20211ATnospamhoboken>
Melissa,
If we are actors "strutting and fretting on the stage," then we are damned
good ones, schooled by Method Acting, line-perfect, never out of character
for a moment.
If we are union members of the Cosmic Repertory Company, then who is the
audience?
Perhaps it is all of us. Perhaps God sat alone in oneness and yearned for
otherness and then sent aspects of himself to spin endless dramas of
experience.
Perhaps the soul not fueled by creativity is doomed to entropy.
I don't know.
Does anyone?
Really?
Sharon
shawebbATnospamyhc.edu
A new fractal gallery was posted to this site on September 10th:
http://home1.gte.net/itriazon/Sharon.htm
USA Today Hot Site; Cosmic Site of the Night: Cool Central Site of the Day;
ENC Digital Dozen for June '97; Enchantment Award; ArtSearch Featured Site;
NetTech NeatTech: Best of the Web in Educational Technology; Eye Candy
Honorable Mention
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 10:23:52 -0800
From: Rebecca Sarinelli <snelliATnospamsonic.net>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: unsubsribe
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971109102352.0079ddc0ATnospampop.sonic.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
unsubscribe
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:24:18 -0500 (EST)
From: BedawnedATnospamaol.com
To: d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu.au, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Message-ID: <971109142417_-759879501ATnospammrin47>
Dieter;
<< There cannot be any complex in the arena of spirituality and that includes
socially stigmatised concepts. To consider suffering a spectator sport and
thus create caste or other systems is the result of a defective social order
which injects an inferiority complex in the mind. >>
Right. Caste reinforces the us vs. them mentality. And history is replete
with examples of "injections" by the "us" into "them" (i.e. the Roman
conquest, the "taming" of the New World, the Africans made slaves en masse).
The reality is that it's us vs. us; and what world could be more absurd
where one half is continually trying to subdue the other half. And subduing
is often masked as lifting. What a mess.
Sincerely, Melissa
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:35:39 -0500 (EST)
From: BedawnedATnospamaol.com
To: d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu.au, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts free will
Message-ID: <971109143538_1347366455ATnospammrin58.mail.aol.com>
Dieter;
<< The point is to fully merge in the Cosmic Will and thereby exhaust all
one's karma (or more technically correct one reactive momenta in potential
form caused by past actions).>>
I generally agree with your note except the above here. Perhaps this will
fly in the face of devout buddhist, but maybe not.
If merging with the Cosmic Will means departure from the Wheel of Life and
breaking up into little bits that melt into Nirvana (the force ;), whatever),
that's not my point. I like being alive, in this form, building, making,
creating, contributing. I don't want to get off the Wheel (however akin to a
rat's tread wheel it may at times seem). And watching an interview on Larry
King Live with the Dali Lama several months ago, I found myself in good
company. He said he didn't want to get of the Wheel either, at least until
suffering ceases in the universe. I was personally delighted by his comment
because I usually think of Buddhists as wanting to merge.
Sincerely, Melissa
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:57:44 -0500
From: dante rosati <danteATnospampop.interport.net>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: dante?/Angelique-Help anyone??
Message-Id: <l03110700b08ba7ba6e31ATnospam[204.74.5.151]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Gloria
Angelique wrote:
>>>> Perhaps there is none, only the soul experiencing, not for lessons
>>>>already learned, but simply for the joy of being, in the infinite
>>>>multiplicity of the present moment.
>yes, sometimes I experience this...
>>>
I commented:
>>>Indeed, but if this is accepted, then there is no way out of a radical
>>>acceptence of >all< experience, painful as well as pleasurable, as bliss.
>>>
and you said:
:>Are you saying this is a logical consequence??
Well, if as A. is saying, the "infinite multiplicity of the present moment"
is experienced not for lessons, but purely for the "joy of being", then all
the pain and suffering must also be included in the "infinite
multiplicity" that is being so experienced. Frankly, I don't like it, but
it >does< mean this.
>hypothetically true??
>Provable?? Experiencable??
The only "suffering" I experience directly is the result of goddesses
f*&king with my heart. :-) Unfortunetly, around me I see vast panoramas of
sufferings of all kinds, serious and horrifying to behold. I may not have
shed a tear for Princess Di, but there are plenty of people around me that
I love dearly who suffer greatly. Through com-passion, I feel this too, and
it sucks. I'm not about to experience another's suffering as "blissful".
I'm also not interested in manifesting suffering for myself so I can
experiment and see if I can experience it as "blissful". I guess as a
Tantrik I'm definitly second-rate. So, I can't really say if its provable
or experiencable. Perhaps others can comment.
Please just explain a bit more..on what basis
>does one idea follow from the previous one. Explain how you mean there is
>no way out
I guess I would like there to be a way out - that somehow suffering was a
mistake that could/should be corrected. But once you accept certain things,
it seems there is " no way out"
At the risk of over-doing the left brain thing, we could say:
IF
Everything is the Divine manifesting as Being-Consciousness-Bliss
THEN
Suffering is also this.
But don't confuse "bliss" and "pleasure". Pleasure would be the opposite of
suffering, but both come under the heading of "blissful". This would mean
that if, for example, I would find myself being arrested and beaten up by
cops, there would be a place in me which would appreciate the perfection of
this experience as much as it does, say, having sex, or anything else
"pleasurable". Again, the key point here is dropping the
"life-as-learning-experience" perspective (because how can Manifesting
Divinity need to "learn") for a "life-"perfect"-in-itself" perspective.
>>>What are we left with? Being yourself, in the sense that you manifest
>>>whatever you manifest, whatever you want to manifest, and that its a fluid
>>>process, a stream that can change course at will: our will, that is. But
>>>the bottom line is: we're all doing just want we want to be doing, always -
>>>no exceptions.
>>>
>ok... Maybe YOU are...but not even in my dreams am I close to *manifesting
>whatever I want to manifest*.
Are you saying this because that's the way it is, or is this the way it is
for you because you're always telling yourself this? Have you dared to make
the experiment of operating from the axiom: "I manifest what I believe."?
This compells you to look deeper into just what you're beliefs are, beliefs
about yourself and about how life "is bound to be".
OK, here's two different views,
1) We are all powerful Gods and Goddesses but some of us have forgotten
and/or have gotten confused. If those of us who have forgotten and gotten
confused were to "wake up" they would quit creating so much suffering for
themselves and others, and we would all be back in paradise.
2) The Divinity manifests both as
a )
people-who-are-awake-to-their-divinity-and-create-lives-of-happiness-and-creativ
ity.
AND
b)
people-who-sleepwalk-through-life-and-create-suffering-for-themselves-and-others
.Both these kinds of manifestations are-what-they-are, are perfect, and
partake of being-consciousness-bliss.
I really like #1. It's what my heart wants.
#2 scares me. It's Kali standing over me. It feels like an abyss. It sticks
in my craw. Don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy being a "type-a"
manifestation. But the "type-b"s I see around me break me heart. I can't
buy that its just
the-Divinity-having-"fun"-manifesting-as-suffering-beings. Fuck that shit!
So why is it that #2 seems to be the inescapable conclusion? It's more by
process of elimination than anything else.:
The notion that we are separate beings is eliminated in favor of the notion
that we are each facets of the One Divinity.
The notion of "lessons" is eliminated by virtue of the fact that Divinity
cannot need to "learn"
So we are left with the notion that all manifestation, all facets of
Divinity, the good the bad and the ugly, are already perfect.
>>>> If time and space do not exist, then the moments of choosing, before
>>>>birth are also in the power of the present moment. It's never too late to
>>>>have a happy childhood.. :)
>>>
>>>If all "incarnations" are simultaneous, then all choosing affects all of
>>>them, simultaneously. Its awesome!
>>>
>>>dante
>>>
>>>okay...IF this, IF that...Having pondered the implications of these last
>two statements.. it's awesome! seems an understatement... now IF someone,
>anyone can dispose of those 2 pesky IFS....please write to me in some
>possibly understandable way. I do have some experience of sudden shifts of
>perception in space time reality and perception of eternal now...some
>simultaneous, even...but most of the time??? well, not yet. The intensity
>of just the idea that *all choosing affects all of them, simultaneously.*
>the implications, let alone the experience of this choosing.. I have no
>words...really, but will say that perhaps may be the end of the trail, who
>knows??
>>>
I think the IFs are the result of what must follow from certain ideas, even
if we don't have what we usually would call a "direct" experience of them.
So, for example its not that "time and space" don't exist, just that they
are local 3-D phenomena and not absolute frameworks (and highly relative
and subjective to boot) From another perspective they "don't exist" and
everything is "happening" simultaneously.
Now, as I'm sitting here typing this, I have no experience of any other
"simultaneous incarnations". In fact, I have a problem with the whole
incarnation thing. If everthing is the Divinity's Infinite Manifestation,
then ALL INCARNATIONS ARE "MY' INCARNATIONS. Cause and effect are only
valid in a time frame, thats why the Buddhists came up with mutual-arising
(pratityasamutpadda) Not "A causes B" but "When A arises, B arises. When B
arises, A arises. When A passes away, B passes away...etc.
For example, we usually say "exercizing makes you healthy" (exercise
'causes' health), but you could just as easily say, "Healthy people
exercise." (health 'causes' exercise) So, "health" and "exercise" are
mutually arising. This may seem like playing with words, but its not
really. Much of traditional religion is based on a
do-something-to-get-something mindset. "Believe in Jesus in order to be
saved" "Meditate in order to become enlightened" etc. All these ways of
thinking are starting with the assumption that something should be
happening thats not (yet) happening, or there's something missing from
present experience that we need to add to it. (salvation, enlightenment)
(Neitzsche saw this as a deliberate manipulation by the priestly classes to
make themselves indespensible to the masses, but thats another story).
The other possibility is that things are perfect (fulfilled) just as they
are. Some manifestations are health-and-exercise manifestations, and others
are couch-potato-and-miserable manifestations. Neither one is "better" or
"worse", "right" or "wrong", "the-way-things-oughtta-be" or
"a-big-mistake".
Then "free will" comes in. Either:
1) We can choose what kind of manifestation we would like to be. There is
no right or wrong choice, its simple a matter of taste.
or
2) The Divinity has already made all the choices and we're them. (sounds
too Calvanistic to me).
Again, I like #1. I can't refute #2, but all my experience points to #1.
Thats about all I can say about it.
dante
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 18:39:38 -0800
From: Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu>
To: Sharon Webb <shawebbATnospamyhc.edu>
CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Message-ID: <346673EA.4ED8ATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu>
The supreme principle and the cardinal rule of the spiritual life has
its foundation in the philosophy of non-violence. Indeed, the effort to
become established in non-violence is the safest way of awakening the
divine love power within. The curiousity of the mind is unlimited. But
how can the conscious mind that is but a small manifestation of the
Divine consciousness capture the Reality of the Original Being which is
Sat-Chit-Ananda, complete and eternal. How I feel for the intellect that
struggles and asks "Does anyone know the reality of God and the
Universe?" What can be said? It is all an open secret. The answer is
there without words when the mind who asks the questions and doubts
surrenders to the divine will and consciously merges in the Heart. Until
then, one may seek the company of wise people and look to the poetry of
the sages for consolation (See Dennis Quin's post on Guru Nanak's
poetry, one of India's great saints and the founder of Sikhism).
God bless everyone with all that is best in life.
Harsh
Sharon Webb wrote:
>
> Melissa,
>
> If we are actors "strutting and fretting on the stage," then we are damned
> good ones, schooled by Method Acting, line-perfect, never out of character
> for a moment.
>
> If we are union members of the Cosmic Repertory Company, then who is the
> audience?
> Perhaps it is all of us. Perhaps God sat alone in oneness and yearned for
> otherness and then sent aspects of himself to spin endless dramas of
> experience.
>
> Perhaps the soul not fueled by creativity is doomed to entropy.
>
> I don't know.
>
> Does anyone?
>
> Really?
>
> Sharon
> shawebbATnospamyhc.edu
> A new fractal gallery was posted to this site on September 10th:
> http://home1.gte.net/itriazon/Sharon.htm
> USA Today Hot Site; Cosmic Site of the Night: Cool Central Site of the Day;
> ENC Digital Dozen for June '97; Enchantment Award; ArtSearch Featured Site;
> NetTech NeatTech: Best of the Web in Educational Technology; Eye Candy
> Honorable Mention
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:08:10 -0800 (PST)
From: merlinATnospampnn.com
To: "Sharon Webb" <shawebbATnospamyhc.edu>
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Message-Id: <199711100008.QAA03008ATnospampnn.com>
Sharon wrote:
>If we are actors "strutting and fretting on the stage," then we are damned
>good ones, schooled by Method Acting, line-perfect, never out of character
>for a moment.
>If we are union members of the Cosmic Repertory Company, then who is the
>audience?
I agree with you, Sharon. We ARE damned good actors. We are so good, that most
of the time we believe ourselves completely and are our own best audiences.
*smile*
Blythe
PS: I've been doing just exactly that today! Took me til your letter to see
it.
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:17:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Rik Wallace <rik_wATnospamrocketmail.com>
To: dante rosati <danteATnospampop.interport.net>, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Cc: rik_wATnospamrocketmail.com
Subject: Re: dante?/Angelique-Help anyone??
Message-ID: <19971110011736.15201.rocketmailATnospamweb4.rocketmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dante - I loved your post, as you expressed some perspectives
on 'perspectives' I was going to share. Here are some additional
comments.
> Well, if as A. is saying, the "infinite multiplicity of the present
> moment" is experienced not for lessons, but purely for the "joy of
> being", then all the pain and suffering must also be included in the
> "infinite multiplicity" that is being so experienced. Frankly, I
don't > like it, but it >does< mean this.
I agree. It depends on the perspective your "compassion" takes.
Focusing on "pain and suffering" is like staring into the void
expecting to find light. Maybe that's the 'wrong' place
to focus? If we instead focus on the *STRIVING*, perhaps we can
better connect, and allow our energy to _empower_, rather than pity.
See the difference? Bliss is found in the striving. Everyone
is striving, and we can all connect to that side of us.
Looking into ourselves (at least the "masochists" among us :))
we know that "PAIN" _can_ be pleasurable, but only if instead of
distancing ourselves from it, we CONNECT to it and become sensitive
to the messages conveyed by these intense sensations. That is how
we heal - both ourselves and others.
> This would mean
> that if, for example, I would find myself being arrested and beaten up
> by cops, there would be a place in me which would appreciate the
> perfection of this experience as much as it does, say, having sex, or
> anything else "pleasurable". Again, the key point here is dropping the
> "life-as-learning-experience" perspective (because how can Manifesting
> Divinity need to "learn") for a "life-"perfect"-in-itself" >
perspective.
I don't believe we need to drop the "life-as-a-learning-experience"
perspective, b/c the constant opportunities to learn from ones
own striving under life's chaotic circumstances are part of the
experience of that "perfection". We can have both perspecives.
> I can't buy that its just the-Divinity-having-"fun"-manifesting-as-
> suffering-beings. Fuck that shit!
Who says the Divinity has "fun"? It probably causes endless frustration
and headaches to be painting such a beautifully complex and interesting
landscape and have the "enlightened ones" looking at the back of the
canvass! ;)) (A tender jab there... take it in the nicest way :)
What I'm saying is that, to use another analogy, if we take a
photograph of the world, we'll see a complex picture of many shades
of light and dark. Some of the people will be less bright.
Some will be trying to find their way in the dark. But none is in
a VOID. There is light in every dark tunnel - we just need to let
our eyes become more sensitive to it, and we'll soon discover that
maybe it isn't so dark after all.
[later...]
> Then "free will" comes in. Either:
> 1) We can choose what kind of manifestation we would like to be.
> There is no right or wrong choice, its simply a matter of taste.
> or
> 2) The Divinity has already made all the choices and we're them.
(sounds too Calvanistic to me).
I believe both apply in a way. Again, it depends on different
co-existent perspectives. My understanding is that The Divinity
does not make choices. IT JUST IS. _We_ however do make choices.
"Freewill" can be understood as simply the observation that those of us
who are not omnicient gods yet (please raise hands! :) cannot
predict what our 'path' has in store for us next. (We are not a
simple physics problem, to say the least.) So "freewill" is a very
useful concept for us in our material existence. We make "choices"
even tho a higher-up observes it all to be part of a highly complex
causality. But what else can we do? That is our life, and as our
life and all the choices and strives we make are part of that plan,
IT IS PERFECT.
'Perfect' doesn't HAVE to mean 'good' btw - it just means that it can't
be any other way. If we wish to make an emotional evaluation of that
which can't be any other way, then we may as well call it 'good',
if for no other reason than to avoid the headaches of trying to
understand it. :)
Can we change our destiny? Perspective again. From our material-POV,
yes of course - we can make "choices" which affect our lives greatly,
and we can do it often, thinking we might move too quickly for Fate to
notice. However the Divine has already accounted for all our
manipulations, as it is very clever. :)
On a different level, if we are all "really" divine, can we change
our "reality"? I think yes and no again. But this is very complex -
If everything is one and the same, then to change any aspect of reality
is to change ALL of it. (Consider that the next time you want to change
a lightbulb, hm? :)) You'd think this would apply to the Divine also,
no? Wouldn't the tiniest "Divine Intervention" create a massive
alteration of all of existence, past, present and future?
Of course, I believe this doesn't happen... the Divine JUST IS.
It is the Unchanging. We are part of it, and may become strive
to become One with it. But as long as we are human, we are not *IT*.
We and our realities are SUBSETS of it, and we may "change our
reality" by changing the inclination of our plane of existence,
so to speak, to encompass a different subset of the Greatness -
perhaps a fuller one - and travel it's many twists and corners.
To be sure, our journeys have been "planned", but maybe thru our
practices, we can sneak a glimpse of the Divine TripTik, lay
ourselves across "the Path", and give away our watches...
All for now. Enjoying all your posts and learning a lifetime.
Love in a PHOTON at your doorstep... -rik
__
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