1997/11/08 15:21
kundalini-l-d Digest V97 #738
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 738
Today's Topics:
Re: Re: Thoughts [ merlinATnospampnn.com ]
Re: Thoughts. [ Barbara Shinton <ce269ATnospamfreenet.toro ]
Second try at: Re: Re: Thoughts (Ang [ merlinATnospampnn.com ]
RE: Karma was: Re: Re: Thoughts. [ Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant ]
Re: Second try at: Re: Re: Thoughts [ Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant ]
Re: Thoughts [ Gloria <glorybeATnospamintrepid.net> ]
freight train [ "Jason S. White" <zymphtATnospambluewin.ch ]
Re: Thoughts [ imtgATnospamjuno.com (tg xxx) ]
Re: GOD, I & II [ Dennis Quinn <dquinnATnospamturbo.KEAN.EDU ]
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:23:17 -0800 (PST)
From: merlinATnospampnn.com
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Re: Thoughts
Message-Id: <199711081623.IAA16518ATnospampnn.com>
Beloveds, this is gonna be short. I'm supposeed to be hunting cows before a
buyer comes, and they've gone into hiding in the woods.
Angelique wrote {in part}:
>There is no here or there to get to. All of eternity
>is in the Now. The Universe has already ended, you are already reunited
>with Creator, and have never been separate. All paths must lead to Goddess,
>coz Goddess is All that is, and so how can we not go to Her?
> Perhaps there is none, only the soul experiencing, not for lessons
>already learned, but simply for the joy of being, in the infinite
>multiplicity of the present moment.
Indeed, but if this is accepted, then there is no way out of a radical
acceptence of >all< experience, painful as well as pleasurable, as bliss.
> When we seek an orgasm, or a perfect ripe peach, we do not go looking for
>lessons, but experiences. Yet in the fullness of the experience, we may
>connect more deeply with Goddess than in the self doubt of introspection,
>prayers of penance.
You used two examples of things greatly pleasurable, which are easily seen
as desireable experiences without needing a "lesson" attached. Is it
possible to accept this with things not usually experienced as pleasurable?
Could one accept, say, a protracted bout with cancer as, not a lesson, but
a perfectly fullfilled experience-in-itself? This would truely be
practicing Tantra in a "cremation ground". Not for the squeamish!
> Yet throwing out the search for lessons in favor of the search for
>experiences, does not preclude free will. We choose our experiences, many
>before birth, co creating each moment. We choose how we feel about our
>experiences, which shapes them by our free will.
This is surely "how it works", but its not "what it is". Who is doing the
choosing? If we all are the Goddess/Divine/whatchmacallit, then that
Divinity is doing the choosing, and does not need to "learn" anything. But,
in a sense, neither does it need to "experience" anything. It's
Heidigger"s "Why is there something rather than nothing?" question. I think
perhaps here the trail peters out, the trail of conceptual understanding,
that is.
What are we left with? Being yourself, in the sense that you manifest
whatever you manifest, whatever you want to manifest, and that its a fluid
process, a stream that can change course at will: our will, that is. But
the bottom line is: we're all doing just want we want to be doing, always -
no exceptions.
> If time and space do not exist, then the moments of choosing, before
>birth are also in the power of the present moment. It's never too late to
>have a happy childhood.. :)
If all "incarnations" are simultaneous, then all choosing affects all of
them, simultaneously. Its awesome!
dante
<---- End Included Message ---->
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:50:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Barbara Shinton <ce269ATnospamfreenet.toronto.on.ca>
To: Mystress Angelique Serpent <mistressATnospamdomin8rex.com>
cc: SchrLLATnospamaol.com, Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts.
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9711081135.A17652-0100000ATnospamsheppard>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Were as sick as our secrets.
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:23:16 -0800 (PST)
From: merlinATnospampnn.com
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Cc: oreaATnospampop.erols.com
Subject: Second try at: Re: Re: Thoughts (Angelique)[Dante]
Message-Id: <199711081723.JAA17453ATnospampnn.com>
Sorry about the undone message sent. I saw the cows, grabbed boots and grain
bucket, and ran. They are now locked in the barn, munching cow granola. So.
Now I will try to recapture the thoughts I had.
Angelique wrote {in part}:
>>There is no here or there to get to. All of eternity
>>is in the Now. The Universe has already ended, you are already reunited
>>with Creator, and have never been separate.
>> Perhaps there is none, only the soul experiencing, not for lessons
>>already learned, but simply for the joy of being, in the infinite
>>multiplicity of the present moment
>> When we seek an orgasm, or a perfect ripe peach, we do not go looking for
>>lessons, but experiences. Yet in the fullness of the experience, we may
>>connect more deeply with Goddess than in the self doubt of introspection,
>>prayers of penance
>> Yet throwing out the search for lessons in favor of the search for
>>experiences, does not preclude free will. We choose our experiences, many
>>before birth, co creating each moment. We choose how we feel about our
>>experiences, which shapes them by our free will.
Dante responded, again, in part:
>This is surely "how it works", but its not "what it is". Who is doing the
>choosing? If we all are the Goddess/Divine/whatchmacallit, then that
>Divinity is doing the choosing, and does not need to "learn" anything. But,
>in a sense, neither does it need to "experience" anything.
The two cents I wanted to put in are as follows.
Last summer I was in Bandon, on the south Oregon coast, visiting a friend.
We'd agreed to put together and perform a "stop smoking" ritual for her. While
I was in the process of explaining to my friend how she should make her
stop-smoking poppet, I found myself deciding to make my own, knowing that I'd
know what it was all about when we were in circle. My friend's poppet was made
of fired clay, to be wrapped in a wax cigarette . Mine was made of beeswax,
with my spittle and hair in it.
When we were in circle, after deity was invoked, I threw my poppet into the
fire to burn. "Mama," i called out,"Beloved! with this self of mine that burns
in the fire, I burn all that is small within me. All that blocks the clear
flow of connection between us."
Since then, things have sped up.
I see that what I did was not lose my small bits, but unlock all the locked
and forgotten closets within myself. In more technical jargon, I began the
task of relaxing all of the psycho-emotional energy pockets which obstruct the
flow of love whichI/She are. I realized that it is not so much the 'bad'
memories/actions/feelings which obstruct, as it is the vast quantities of self
which go into not-seeing, not-acknowledging. It is as if I were holding onto a
tree trunk.. gripping it with all my strength...and yelling:"God/dess. I love
You! Why can't I get closer to You? Release me from this tree so I can come to
You!" Duh.
So Yes. We are all the same flow. We are all Her/Him. All experiences are
bliss...potentially. All time is now. All of that that we can see. We just do
bang up jobs of resisting.
Um. I can see it perfectly clearly, but the words aren't as clear as I'd like.
It's not the experiences that get in the way. It's locking them up and pouring
our whole selves into reactions which freeze us.
Ok. Now to go clean off the "cow experience" from my boots before the buyer
arrives.
I'm very happy to have found this list.
Blessings are.
Blythe
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:47:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu>
To: "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.org>
cc: Dieter Dambiec <d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu.au>,
kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com,
"kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com" <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: RE: Karma was: Re: Re: Thoughts.
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971108123901.688A-100000ATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
What reincarnates is the ego or the sense of I (meaning should be taken in
the subtlest sense). The manifestation of emotional and intellectual
patterns differ according to the active Karmas.
************
Harsh K. Luthar Smile a lot:)
************
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:52:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu>
To: merlinATnospampnn.com
cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, oreaATnospampop.erols.com, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Second try at: Re: Re: Thoughts (Angelique)[Dante]
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971108124855.688B-100000ATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 8 Nov 1997 merlinATnospampnn.com wrote:
> Sorry about the undone message sent. I saw the cows, grabbed boots and grain
> bucket, and ran. They are now locked in the barn, munching cow granola. So.
> Now I will try to recapture the thoughts I had.
Do not try to capture thoughts! Let them go and be
free:-)
Harsh K. Luthar
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 13:46:41 -0500
From: Gloria <glorybeATnospamintrepid.net>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971108134641.007016c0ATnospamintrepid.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:41 AM 11/8/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>> << CGIAJW wrote: >>If someone suffers, that is why they reincarnated,
>and
>> they are learning their important lessons, if someone helps them, that
>was
>> already
>> planned too, and that is part of the lesson.>>
Who does not suffer?? But, seriously it concerns me that this type of
thinking is sometimes used to justify walking around any and all types of
suffering with that *innocent bystander excuse*.... surely, there are
indeed limits to our individual capacities and not all are incarnating with
some intention/capacity to be a Mother Teresa.. but just what is a way to
*see* and choose our responsibility...if we have already decided that "X
must need to be learning that lesson... or it would not be happening..then
would seem such a belief would greatly influence one's response to
witnessing suffering...to endure?? to alleviate?? to end it?? there are so
many possible choices...and if there is no free will, it sure still feels
like a choice to me.. so I wonder how to understand this *belief*...
>> <<SW- This notion seems to preclude free will, doesn't it? And if we
>throw
>> out free will, then it seems to follow that any lesson "learned" was
>> predetermined; therefore, nothing was learned at all. >>
>>
>> It depends how "free" we really are. All are pre-determinedly blessed
>and
>> cursed by the genetic contributions of our parents. No one is completely
>> free. But suffering and giving compassion (at point X or Y in one's 15th
>> lifetime :) may have been freely and willfully agreed to either prior to
>our
>> present life in a spiritual existence OR freely and willfully
>subconsciously
>> agreed to in (Joseph Campbell's) web of present day life.
>
ok, so who knows this at the time its happening...??? does a baby being
abused and killed have any awareness of having chosen to be born to
experience this.. for whatever reason you may believe it is happening.. the
baby sure appears to suffer.. and society still has to deal with cleaning
up such messes somehow... so we blame and hold the killer more responsible
than the baby...would a more spiritually advanced view be ... like what??
This baby must have volunteered and planned to do this for some good
reason.. would we then deal with the killer in some different way, if you
believe this way?? I am just asking, because it seems confusing to me when
I try to imagine the *real world* consequences of certain beliefs.. How is
it helpful to believe that everyone volunteeers and suffers for like
specific cases.. it seems this belief would change how we deal as a
society with so many Victim Issues. I would like to hear others response to
this question please..
>>From my walkout experiences and other's near death experiences that I hae
>read about I have the following ideas:
>I believe that we choose our parents, family situation and plan out our
>lessons to be learned before birth. We do this on our own with the help of
>spirit/God and our spiritual elders. I see spirit as being more of an
>conductor, making suggestions and helping us to organize ourselves..spirit
>then sends us on our way.
>
>In this there is total choice because whatever situatin we find ourselves
>in we have chosen that path.
To me.. this sounds like simply..instead of blaming the *others* who do
this to me.. I now blame myself...the next question is supposed to be
what??? like , so what?? How does this *help you* to believe you chose to
suffer... other than to then get mad now at yourself for being so stupid...
hindsight is like this...but seeing yourself as like so totally responsible
for everything seems pretty overwhelming to the average person...who really
wants to be GOD/Goddess if it means taking on ALL the responsibilty also..
its no wonder the average person watches a lot of TV and indulges in mostly
passive avoidance type thinking and beliefs... even the very limited
responsibility you suggest here.. just and only *my situation*.. whatever
does that mean?? How healthy is THAT??? It's a tad grandiose to imagine
that you and you alone are controlling all that is happening in your
life...whatever is *human interaction* then???
You raise some very interesting questions here and I do not mean to sound
just critical of your beliefs...but when I have heard this point of view
before, seldom had a chance to ask questions for reaction... this is how we
learn,isn't it??? so thanks and consider this.. *just a few more
questions*... with Love and Gratitude to you..Gloria Lee
>It's a really healthy way of looking at life.. it doesn't give you the
>iberty of going around and blaming others for your own state of life and
>makes you take responsibility for your situation.
>
>just a few thoughts
>Nancy E.
>WaterFall in spirit
>>
>
>
>> "My freedom is killing me." --George Sand :)
>>
>> yours, Melissa
>
>
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 21:21:28 +0100
From: "Jason S. White" <zymphtATnospambluewin.ch>
To: Kundalini <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
CC: Colleen Altman <CAltman192ATnospamaol.com>
Subject: freight train
Message-ID: <3464C9C8.F8218696ATnospambluewin.ch>
>From tracks ill-formed and unaware
the runaway freight train
of rationality and reason
Derailed
in the force of the light beyond logic.
Boxcars full of neatly-stowed ever-burning
emotions, fears, hopes, dreams
spill onto the limitless landscape
fertilizing the soil of this old soul.
So many cars there were,
so much reckage to sift through,
such a rich field of life and love created
ready to sow and grow and sprout anew.
The mirrored eye that sees all
Watches
without concern for reckage or growth
but only for reuniting this landscape
with that from which it was never split.
That billowing light beyond logic
turns my eyes inside out
to show me the illusion of its magic
and in the wake of chaos erase all doubt.
Zympht.
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:17:03 -0500
From: imtgATnospamjuno.com (tg xxx)
To: glorybeATnospamintrepid.net
Cc: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Message-ID: <19971108.171704.3686.4.imtgATnospamjuno.com>
Glorybe wrote...
<<To me.. this sounds like simply..instead of blaming the *others* who do
this to me.. I now blame myself...the next question is supposed to be
what??? like , so what?? How does this *help you* to believe you chose to
suffer... other than to then get mad now at yourself for being so
stupid...>>
Gloria.... this is only my opinion and maybe doesn't apply to all the
ills of the world. I agree with Nancy on her thoughts -- to take
responsibility for ourselves and quit playing the victim. But once we do
that, we have to go one step further. If we don't take this step, we
will be taking responsibility for ourselves but kicking and blaming our
own selves (we would then be the victim & the victimizer). The next
step is to look at it a bit further..... To look at the situation and
come to the realization that we all did the best that we could do at the
time for what we knew. Maybe you and/or the other person will choose to
learn from it, maybe not. It is your choice. No one is to blame.
I used to blame my ex for the downfall of our marriage. He was verbally
abusive, rude, screwed around, blah blah blah. Once I took a good look
at it all, to take responsibility back where it belongs, I saw that I
didn't communicate to him how I felt. I didn't give him a chance to have
the option to grow or not - I just accepted his behavior and made a
living whining about it. I walked away, leaving him in a daze of
wonderment saying 'what did I do?' He had no idea I felt that way until
it was too late!
After this realization, that I, too, had to take responsbility for the
downfall of our marriage, I felt awful! As I turned this finally over
to the Holy Spirit, I was shown that we both did the best we could do for
what we knew at the time. Ahhhh relief. No one was to blame. We were
both just where we were.
For a baby in an abusive situation, I have no answer. That to me doesn't
make sense either. They are unable to take responsibility. Maybe thats
where we all come in. To help others that are unable to help themselves
if we are given the chance. Just a thought.
xxxtg
* Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
http://members.aol.com/Teeegeee/tgsplace.html <~~~~ on the web now!
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:21:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Quinn <dquinnATnospamturbo.KEAN.EDU>
To: kundalini-1ATnospamexecpc.com
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: GOD, I & II
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.91.971108170610.19870A-100000ATnospamturbo.kean.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Proem
God is One,
His Name is Truth;
Fashioner of all things,
Fearless and without enmity,
Timeless is His Image;
Unbegotten, Self-existent;
Shown by the grace of the Guru.
The Meditation
As in the Beginning;
The Truth throughout the Ages,
Ever Existent as Truth,
Even now immanent as Truth,
Forevermore He shall be Truth Eternal.
I
Not through thought is He apprehended,
Though we strive a hundred thousand times
to grasp Him;
Not by outer silence or long contemplation
Can the inner Silence be attained;
Nor can man's hunger for God be appeased
By amassing the world's riches.
All the countless tricks of earthly wisdom
Leave a man disconsolate, nothing avails.
How then shall we find the Truth?
How indeed shall we rend the veils of untruth?
Abide by His Will and make your own
His Will, O Nanak, written in your Heart.
II
Through His Will He engenders all forms,
But who can express the form of His Will?
All life is shaped by His design,
He determines the high and the low;
His Writ ordains all pleasure and pain.
Through His Will some are rewarded with grace,
Whilst others grope through births and deaths;
Nothing at all remains outside His Will.
O Nanak, he who senses the Supreme Will
Never egotistically boasts "It is I."
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