1997/09/01 14:38
kundalini-l-d Digest V97 #421
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 421
Today's Topics: Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit
Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit
Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit
Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit
Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit
Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit
RE: Cary Grant, A Seagull and Einstien Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 07:02:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: M To: Sen Ashanka/AIS spa/IT
Cc: kundalini-l Subject: Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit
Message-Id:
At 03:28 PM 9/1/97, Sen Ashanka/AIS spa/IT wrote:
>>The part I care about is that yet another very visible young woman life's >>has been abbreviated as soon as she demonstrated the power of her own will.
>>I am bored with that plot and think it is >>harmful to our future development. Don't you?
>I think we are over-reacting.
Who is the we who is over-reacting? You and who?
>Why on earth do we need "role models" ???
I don't, you don't, but lots of young women do. . .that's why there are
celebrities. One can't overcome the ego until one actually has one, and lots of young women use 'role models' to help develop one. Females tend to
have underdeveloped egos, males overdeveloped egos.
> The problem with our system >of education probably is that it teaches us technical and analytical skills but
>not how to live life.
Absolutely, positively. Hence the gigantic self-help-book market, talk show phenomena,etc.
>>we need to see willful women suceed and lead long full lives.......
> >Just look around, you will see several examples. Lady Di was one such, but
>the only one such.
She was more visible than most. And the timing so dramatic...
>Even in the field of religion there have been a number of lady saints who have >had wonderful visions of the Lord and have helped eveyone who have come
>in contact with them.
Again, she was more visible than most. And the timing so dramatic...
> We have to have a more mature outlook.
You and the other part of that 'we' you refer to surely must. Young women
needing a successful role model will have to look around some. Get it?
M Date: 1 Sep 97 17:04:32
From: Sen Ashanka/AIS spa/IT To: M
Cc: kundalini-l Subject: Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit
Message-Id:
Dear M,
---You wrote----
>You and the other part of that 'we' you refer to surely must. Young women >needing a successful role model will have to look around some. Get it?
Beg to differ slightly on this view. Methinks it is completely off track if
women have to be educated based on "role models". This beats the purpose. No one needs role models to depend on. During the time of
our childhood our parents typically are the role models, during the teens it is the media persons. Even then there is no over-dependance on them.
Let the celebrities lead their own lives, why pressurise them because
they may become "role models" ? Every individual is limited and faulty to an extent somewhere or the other. So if they become role models it
is not being very kind to the generation that is to grow up.
If people need a role model we have the one and only one kind of role model that is perfect and will never fail. That is the role model of Christ,
the role model of Buddha, the role model of Krishna, of Rama. The role model of the divine women..... If you make them the role model and
the young women follow that, then they get tremendous strength and will..... that what is required by them.
If you make role models out of mortals, you suffer.... nothing can stop
you from that misery. Not till that mortal has inbibed immortal character. Then it is okay. Or else you suffer all the pains of the human role model.
If I make a role model of a mortal, and that mortal gets into troubled times,
I fall into a similar misery, and serves me right for it.
Let me re-iterate something said before, if you want the glamour and glitter, you will have to get the muck and dirt as well. This is the truth
and there is no exception.
No getting away from the wrong deed of choosing a wrong thing to lean upon. This world is not permanent, this life is not permanent.
How can we make another temporary entity as our support ? We are like little boats tossed around is the ocean. How can we take
a little raft as our support ? We need a solid rock.
This sounds had but this is the truth.
Cheers and love to all Ashanka
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:43:38 -0700 (PDT) From: M
To: Sen Ashanka/AIS spa/IT Cc: kundalini-l
Subject: Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This would all make good sense if the whole world were k-ites, spiritually focused, etc. How much of it do you think actually is? 4% 25% 7% 55% 38.6%
Do you care about the rest and think that we on the klist should consider what influences them? I think that is a large part of what we should be up
to. Nobless oblige in a sense, ya know? M
At 05:04 PM 9/1/97, Sen Ashanka/AIS spa/IT wrote:
>Dear M, >
>---You wrote---- >>You and the other part of that 'we' you refer to surely must. Young women
>>needing a successful role model will have to look around some. Get it? >
>Beg to differ slightly on this view. Methinks it is completely off track if >women have to be educated based on "role models". This beats the
>purpose. No one needs role models to depend on. During the time of >our childhood our parents typically are the role models, during the teens
>it is the media persons. Even then there is no over-dependance on them. >
>Let the celebrities lead their own lives, why pressurise them because >they may become "role models" ? Every individual is limited and faulty
>to an extent somewhere or the other. So if they become role models it >is not being very kind to the generation that is to grow up.
> >If people need a role model we have the one and only one kind of role
>model that is perfect and will never fail. That is the role model of Christ, >the role model of Buddha, the role model of Krishna, of Rama. The role
>model of the divine women..... If you make them the role model and >the young women follow that, then they get tremendous strength and
>will..... that what is required by them. >
>If you make role models out of mortals, you suffer.... nothing can stop >you from that misery. Not till that mortal has inbibed immortal character.
>Then it is okay. Or else you suffer all the pains of the human role model. >
>If I make a role model of a mortal, and that mortal gets into troubled times, >I fall into a similar misery, and serves me right for it.
> >Let me re-iterate something said before, if you want the glamour and
>glitter, you will have to get the muck and dirt as well. This is the truth >and there is no exception.
> >No getting away from the wrong deed of choosing a wrong thing
>to lean upon. This world is not permanent, this life is not permanent. >How can we make another temporary entity as our support ? We
>are like little boats tossed around is the ocean. How can we take >a little raft as our support ? We need a solid rock.
> >This sounds had but this is the truth.
> >Cheers and love to all
>Ashanka >
> >
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 12:21:39 -0400 From: "Rick Puravs"
To: Subject: Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit
Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCB6D1.99547380"
Sen Ashanka wrote....
"Beg to differ slightly on this view. Methinks it is completely off track if
women have to be educated based on "role models". This beats the purpose. No one needs role models to depend on. During the time of
our childhood our parents typically are the role models, during the teens it is the media persons. Even then there is no over-dependance on them.
Let the celebrities lead their own lives, why pressurise them because
they may become "role models" ? Every individual is limited and faulty to an extent somewhere or the other. So if they become role models it
is not being very kind to the generation that is to grow up.
If people need a role model we have the one and only one kind of role model that is perfect and will never fail. That is the role model of
Christ, the role model of Buddha, the role model of Krishna, of Rama. The role
model of the divine women..... If you make them the role model and the young women follow that, then they get tremendous strength and
will..... that what is required by them.
If you make role models out of mortals, you suffer.... nothing can stop you from that misery. Not till that mortal has inbibed immortal character.
Then it is okay. Or else you suffer all the pains of the human role model." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------------------------
I have to agree with this. We have role models who are athletes, movie stars,
musicians, politicians, the rich and powerful....and i would not limit this to the
teen years either....i have run across plenty of adults who still have role models
of this sort. In many instances these people offer no particular qualities to
emulate besides their skill at a particular sport, good looks, money, or whatever.
This is as it should be, this is life. If a person can bat .300 in major league baseball
they should be allowed to do this and still have their private life off the field. I believe
Pete Rose should be in the Baseball Hall of Fame based on what he did on the
field, not what happened elsewhere. A person should not be forced into role model
status just because they in some way become a public figure. Then again there is
the marketing aspect of it all.....the Michael Jordan's and Tiger Woods (what was it?
25-30 million to promote American Express)....for that kind of money i can see
giving up a few things to keep up my role model image . Besides marketing, all
this reeks of social control......and by whom? the government? the corporations?
Certainly the media manipulates/is manipulated to pass on certain images, certain
standards.....and whom does this serve? So we have boys who will never make it to the NBA wanting to "be like
Mike", and girls who will never look like Cindy Crawford suffering from low-self
esteem. Whom does this serve?
Rick
Attachment Converted: "C:\SLIP\EUDORA\kundal25" Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:52:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: M To: "Rick Puravs"
Cc: Subject: Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit
Message-Id:
At 12:21 PM 9/1/97 -0400, Rick Puravs wrote:
Besides >marketing, all
>this reeks of social control......and by whom? the government? the >corporations?
>Certainly the media manipulates/is manipulated to pass on certain images, >certain
>standards.....and whom does this serve? >So we have boys who will never make it to the NBA wanting to "be like
>Mike", and >girls who will never look like Cindy Crawford suffering from low-self
>esteem. Whom >does this serve?
Rick, Serves absolutely no one.
Ok, now, what do we enlightened few do about it?
1.) If one happens to work with young women as I do, compile lists of
willful women who do not suffer for it and get the lists out there to these young women who need to become their own role models or find better than
media manipulated ones.
2.) ???
Bottom Line: Philosophy and musings and enlightenment itself must all eventually turn into actions that benefit others, dontcha think?
M
PS Any way you could turn off the html trailer to your posts? Please. Sometimes causes a problem....
Date: 1 Sep 97 19:11:40
From: Sen Ashanka/AIS spa/IT To: M
Cc: kundalini-l Subject: Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit
Message-Id:
Dear M,
---You wrote--- >This would all make good sense if the whole world were k-ites, spiritually
>focused, etc. How much of it do you think actually is? 4% 25% 7% 55% 38.6%
>Do you care about the rest and think that we on the klist should consider >what influences them? I think that is a large part of what we should be up
>to. Nobless oblige in a sense, ya know? M
Yes, agreed, the fact is that the populance do need some role model.
This is the basis of the image worship prevalelant among the mass in India. Because they cannot concentrate on an abstract idea, they are
given a role model in the form of a God with a form.
Only suggestion is why not re-instate divine personalities as the role- models. Why mortals and popular movie and baseball stars, as Rick
has put it ?
>Do you care about the rest and think that we on the klist should consider
>what influences them? I think that is a large part of what we should be up >to. Nobless oblige in a sense, ya know? M
Fine, we "K-ites" with a "broader vision of life" should be thinking about the rest of the persons. That is what exactly I have been saying. The
populance should not need mortal role-models. This puts pressure on the individual trying to fit into a role, as well as on the people when their
image is shattered or hurt. Nothing like that happens to the divine role- models and this is that everybody should look at. So, we being little
less affected by the turmoils of life, should look at trying to fix the minds of the pupulation on the eternal, and not on something temporary
that comes and goes, victim of circumstances.
If children want to touch fire, should we let them ?
Makes sense I hope (:-).
Cheers and love to all Ashanka
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 11:18:58 +0100 From: Gloria Greco
To: Sen Ashanka/AIS spa/IT CC: M , kundalini-l
Subject: Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
After reading all of the posts this morning, I think we have to get to
the bottom of what is here... which is 3 different souls time to leave this plane.
We can certainly converse on the way it came about, and perhaps it will
be used to balance some of the obvious corruption in the media system. However, Diana was in her creating process and came to the end of it for
this experience. Her lack of privacy for sure was a factor in what she could live with, but she certainly came in and made a statement. She
stood up to a system that as she said on an interview was all head, while she was all heart.
Diana knew that her role was one of public, looking to have a regular
life was not in the cards for her this time around. These decisions fit into the soul/spirit agenda, not into the mind/thought one...remember
two others went out with her. Everyone mourns Di but the other two were important as well.
Diana had a type of energy that confronted the established system,
anyone with her would be affected by it, at the same time she was fragile, unhappy and very tired of her role.
She made a decision probably over a period of time, the cause and
effect came together and the photographers were used...and who is to say that it wouldn't have happened anyway without them. It would have been
different if they were not there, wouldn't it?
The world needs to look at the way it puts people in that place of fame, which creates this maddness around their every act. Each person
who takes this particular part of the drama hungered for the attention, money, excitement, identity, none of it just happens. Each individual
creates it, do remember it. The life they lead creates the excitement for the average person to look to as 'wonderful, dramatic, exciting.'
We live at a time of great change, perhaps what is coming down is a
reflection into the minds and hearts of the mass consciousness. How much time can be given to this illusion when the reality is in our lap.
Gloria >
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 12:11:43 -0700 (PDT) From: M
To: Sen Ashanka/AIS spa/IT Cc: kundalini-l
Subject: Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:11 PM 9/1/97, Sen Ashanka/AIS spa/IT wrote: >Dear M,
>---You wrote--- >>This would all make good sense if the whole world were k-ites, spiritually
>>focused, etc. How much of it do you think actually is? 4% 25% 7% 55% >38.6% Do you care about the rest and think that we on the klist should consider
>>what influences them? I think that is a large part of what we should be up >>to. Nobless oblige in a sense, ya know? M
>Yes, agreed, the fact is that the populance do need some role model.
>This is the basis of the image worship prevalelant among the mass in >India. Because they cannot concentrate on an abstract idea, they are
>given a role model in the form of a God with a form. >Only suggestion is why not re-instate divine personalities as the role-
>models.
HOW?? Please begin this project asap. Spread the word, etc.
Why mortals and popular movie and baseball stars, as Rick >has put it ?
Yes, WHY?
but more important, what can we do to remedy the situation??
>>Do you care about the rest and think that we on the klist should consider >>what influences them? I think that is a large part of what we should be up
>>to. Nobless oblige in a sense, ya know? M >
>Fine, we "K-ites" with a "broader vision of life" should be thinking about >the rest of the persons. That is what exactly I have been saying. The
>populance should not need mortal role-models. This puts pressure on >the individual trying to fit into a role, as well as on the people when their
>image is shattered or hurt. Nothing like that happens to the divine role- >models and this is that everybody should look at. So, we being little
>less affected by the turmoils of life, should look at trying to fix the >minds of the pupulation on the eternal, and not on something temporary
>that comes and goes, victim of circumstances.
It seems you want to criticize the 'masses' who 'cannot concentrate on
abstractions' and yet you offer nothing but SHOULDS. Shoulds don't do much. Abstractions are lovely, but again, they don't do much. What actions might
be taken to further this goal of getting the masses to do what they should and get themselves some spiritual role models??
A good but difficult rule to runs one life by is: do not call attention to a
problem you are not trying in some way to solve!
M Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 12:13:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: M To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:11 PM 9/1/97, Sen Ashanka/AIS spa/IT wrote: >Dear M,
>---You wrote--- >>This would all make good sense if the whole world were k-ites, spiritually
>>focused, etc. How much of it do you think actually is? 4% 25% 7% 55% >38.6% Do you care about the rest and think that we on the klist should consider
>>what influences them? I think that is a large part of what we should be up >>to. Nobless oblige in a sense, ya know? M
>Yes, agreed, the fact is that the populance do need some role model.
>This is the basis of the image worship prevalelant among the mass in >India. Because they cannot concentrate on an abstract idea, they are
>given a role model in the form of a God with a form. >Only suggestion is why not re-instate divine personalities as the role-
>models.
HOW?? Please begin this project asap. Spread the word, etc.
Why mortals and popular movie and baseball stars, as Rick >has put it ?
Yes, WHY?
but more important, what can we do to remedy the situation??
>>Do you care about the rest and think that we on the klist should consider >>what influences them? I think that is a large part of what we should be up
>>to. Nobless oblige in a sense, ya know? M >
>Fine, we "K-ites" with a "broader vision of life" should be thinking about >the rest of the persons. That is what exactly I have been saying. The
>populance should not need mortal role-models. This puts pressure on >the individual trying to fit into a role, as well as on the people when their
>image is shattered or hurt. Nothing like that happens to the divine role- >models and this is that everybody should look at. So, we being little
>less affected by the turmoils of life, should look at trying to fix the >minds of the pupulation on the eternal, and not on something temporary
>that comes and goes, victim of circumstances.
It seems you want to criticize the 'masses' who 'cannot concentrate on
abstractions' and yet you offer nothing but SHOULDS. Shoulds don't do much. Abstractions are lovely, but again, they don't do much. What actions might
be taken to further this goal of getting the masses to do what they should and get themselves some spiritual role models??
A good but difficult rule to runs one life by is:
do not call attention to a problem you are not trying in some way to solve!
M
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 12:23:37 -0700 (PDT) From: M
To: "Hannah A. Kimsey/John S. Siegel" Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hannah and John,
What a wonderful and thoughtful reply. Couldn't we post this to the K-list? You express it all so much better than I did. Please? Wait a sec. I see
k-list on the cc field but not in my mailbox. I guess it will show up eventually. Again,
thank you for staying on the first topic and doing so very thoughtfully. It is quite a phenomena and worth discussing in and of itself. M
At 11:01 AM 9/1/97 -0700, Hannah A. Kimsey/John S. Siegel wrote:
>Dear M: >I woke up late this morning and read the replies to the issues you
>raise. John and I liked your question because (you're right), it >stimulates dialogue. Earlier last night (before reading your question),
>as John and I were walking our field, we discussed the very issue you >raise; that is, why does it seem that when a person begins to "break
>set" (develop "will") this is often accompanied by a "dangerous period" >(greater risk)? Damn it, it is true; we have both lost (i.e., death)
>friends and family members (as well as clients) who have died after >coming through the greatest of difficulties, after breaking set (defying
>social conventions), and after developing some "intentionality" or >"will." Yes, M, it is a damn good question. It is worthy of dialogue.
> snip
> >After the friend left the house to pursue his karma yoga, John and I
>discussed how frustrating and heartfelt it is to watch such a great >process (developing "will") in others. We also felt the grief of the
>loss of our friends and loved ones who had a similar outcome (death). >The process you describe has "ripped" both of us when we have lost
>someone close.
snip
>The question you raise has struck a nerve in this home. We continue to >struggle with it. I have found that even a philosophical viewpoint does
>not help me put the question aside. I will struggle with that very >question for a long, long time.
>
I hope not. Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 12:28:37 -0700
From: Ken McFarland To: Sen Ashanka/AIS spa/IT
Cc: M , kundalini-l Subject: Re: life imitates melodrama, dammit
Message-id:
At 07:11 PM 9/1/97 +0000, Sen Ashanka/AIS spa/IT wrote:
>Fine, we "K-ites" with a "broader vision of life" should be thinking about
>the rest of the persons. That is what exactly I have been saying. The >populance should not need mortal role-models.
The divine role-models do provide the goal.
Human role models may make the goal manifest in life. The best human role models may not be celebrities.
Love and Joy,
Ken Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 13:49:47 PDT
From: "Joseph Miller" To: mistressATnospamdomin8rex.com
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: RE: Cary Grant, A Seagull and Einstien
Message-ID:
I know it really doesn't have any thing to do with the message in your
story and I do hope you don't think me rude but in regards to:
>For most of his life, Cary Grant hid the deep feelings of inadequacy >he felt, till one day in his 50's, watching one of his old movies
>with one of his grandchildren and reflecting back on his life, he >came to a stunning realization.
I thought he only had one child, with Dyan Cannon, born after he was in
his sixties. I seem to remember a lot being written about it at the time. Any one else remember one way or the other?
Joe
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