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List Threads.

Breaking the connection to the Guru

   

Question:
>I was being given shaktipat energy by a man. ( I did not know it or
>understand it)
>I was also doing yoga meditation and breathing exercises.
>Because I had a guru, I contributed every wonderful energy orgasmic
>experience to having him in my life.
>As a result, I belive I've suffered a lot because of the connection.
>I was confused for about 4 years. It's only been the last 6 months or so
>Sadly, I'm not toatlly at ease with it yet.
>I always thought if he went away, then kundalini would go away and a lot
>of the time it did. I'm still working through this one and it pains me to
>even share how dumb and gullible I've been, but I thought it might help
>someone else. I'd do anything to be able to re- live my awakening and be
>one with Goddess, not a human being.

In the past few months I have been getting a lot of questions like this. Many emails from people asking how to get free of addiction or attachment to their ex-Guru. It is difficult. I know from my own experience playing at Guru games in the 90's, that such bonds are very difficult to break, from both sides, and can be extremely painful if the relationship does not work out.

I have come to redefine my definitions of matriarchy and patriarchy. Patriarchal spirituality sees the Divine as something outside of oneself... Michelangelo's image of God as an old bearded father figure in the sky... or an old bearded Guru on a mountaintop! Patriarchal spirituality requires a middleman, the priest or Guru.

With matriarchal spirituality, the Divine is immanent, not external. It is in everything, and in you. Serve Goddess within yourself and have none before.

To break the connection, have a nice chat with your inner Divine Beloved and ask it to take a new form, to stop wearing the face of your ex-Guru. You may have to do this a few times before your DB is convinced of your sincerity.

When you feel or think of something that reminds you of your ex-Guru, think of something else. Devotion to an iconic image or old God like Kwan Yin can be a useful replacement image... though eventually you will have to let go of that as well.

Tony Robbins (NLP Guru!) has an effective technique for changing mental associations. He calls it a "Swish" technique. Start with a mental image of the thing you wish to disassociate from. Likely it is Technicolor bright in your mind, with surround sound. Turn down the sound, fade the colour, make the image grainy and shrink it down to a tiny dot in the left corner of your mental field. Bring up an image of the new association, or ask Goddess to provide one. Make this image Technicolor bright with sound and feeling. Then hold out your arm, bent upwards at the elbow and swing it from right to left like a windshield wiper while you say "Swish!" Often this has to be done only once with a single image, but you may want to repeat it with other associated issues.

The other thing you need to do is not a shielding as such, (I am not a fan of shielding or protection spells) but set up an energy bubble to change the energy transaction between you and your ex-Guru. Just outside the oval field of your aura, create an extra layer that is a bubble. First, give it a mirror finish on the inside with a specific intention: that the mirror is a filter that will reflect back to you any energy, thoughts or feelings you might project onto your ex-Guru. You can also mirror the outside with an intention that any energy your ex-Guru projects to you would be reflected back, or you can set it to redirect that upwards to Goddess, sort of surrender on autopilot.

If you find yourself getting emotionally unstable, then take the bubble down and/or double check that you are clear on the intentions you set for it. I use a slightly different mirror bubble for people who need to learn not to project energy, and warn them not to leave it up for more than a day or two at a time.

MAS

******************

If your Guru is an illumined master and you have surrended your life to him/her and their teachings, then instantly a sacred bond is effected and this cannot be broken.

Once you have made yourself fit to be his/her disciple and implicity follow their instructions, then all advancement, spiritually, is down to Guru-Kripa or grace of Guru.

Basically you become one with the Guru, and the more you try to make yourself into him/her (through their instructions), the more you make yourself fit to receive their divine powers and enlightement, and God willing, become fully illumined.

The Indian scriptures teach that it is a great sin to abandon your Guru, if you have fully surrended your life to him. And any effort that you make independantly after abandoning him, is only worth the effort alone.

In the west however, very rare indeed is it to come into contact with an illumined sage, and blessed are those individuals who get this opportunity (and the chance to be gifted with the title of being called their disciple).

This explains why a lot of people take fully illumined masters that have recently passed away, because even though they are not present physically, thier teachings are eternal and a manifestation of Divinty itself; and the Guru's spirit and Guru-Kripa is automatically bestowed on those worthy disciples, who, with this knowledge, faithfully follow thier instructions.

There are many instances when, in these circumstances, the Guru has manifested himself to the worthy disciple in a dream, to inspire the same onwards, and to clear their doubts as to whether the holy Guru's spirit is still alive and kicking.

But how to know if a master is a Jivanmukta or illumined sage? And is it absolutely necessary to have take such a master as one's Guru?

Well there are many Gurus, particularly in the west who have done some achievement spiritually and have (through personal desires or whatever), created their own institutions for the sake of capitalising on their achievements, but have not reached the full illumination.

They may be very saintly people, and perhaps can demonstrate some yogic powers, but ultimately, if you take them as your Guru, they can only take you up to their level, and then you will have to seek out a higher Guru. This situation can sometimes cause conflicts between the Guru and disciple, particularly when the disciple advances up to the level of the Guru, and because the Guru is not fully realized and completely pure, he may feel threatened slightly and a situation may arise. But in this situation, the noble Guru would refer you to someone higher than himself for the sake of your further advancement.

So on the outset, if you feel you are ready to fully accept someone as your Guru for life, then it pays to know whether or not they are a saint of the highest order. A Jivanmukta.

For details on how to know whether one is a Jivanmukta, click link:
_http://www.dlshq.org/saints/jivanmukta.htm_
(http://www.dlshq.org/saints/jivanmukta.htm)
Much Love

James

******************

although, of course, you may be mistaken in all you've written. it seems many on this list would disagree with you, including MAS herself, to whom you are responding directly.

Brian

********************

James,

I find your letter to be highly interesting. I understand what you are saying, and agree with it on a level for the more mundane 'seekers'. My limited understanding would 'tweak' your position in that 'grace of guru' can occur at any moment, at any time, and without the understanding of the guru or the student. On a mundane level, the guru and student are both human and flawed. Yet, at the same time, they are 'cups' that contain pure grace. It is not necessary that the guru be some saintly and wise master in order to propel a student to a higher level. It is the student, through their openness and devotion, that determines their own level of attainment.

Quoting James:

> If your Guru is an illumined master and you have surrended your life to

Narda

********************

> Basically you become one with the Guru, and the more you try to make
> yourself into him/her (through their instructions), the more you make
> yourself fit
> to receive their divine powers and enlightement, and God willing, become
> fully
> illumined.

"Following someone else's BS leads to who they are, not to who you are."

I have limited experience with guru's but I do believe the greatest guru (and one most relevant for the individual) is the one within you.

r

*************************

The job of the guru is to point you to yourself...to find your inner guru. In Buddhism, the root guru is one who 'introduces you to your own mind'. A kind guru will support you as you unfold, but that is not necessary.

narda

*********************************

In a message dated 11/21/05 9:22:48 AM, rich writes:

> > I have limited experience with guru's but I do believe the greatest guru
> (and one most relevant for the individual) is the one within you.
>
The greatest spiritual teachers and guru's that I've had are the ones who don't take away the individual's power to find their own truth within themselves.

They are usually humble individuals, who don't claim to hold more of the truth more than I do, don't spew advice or make recommendations...but over time empowered me to discover that the answers I'm looking for are to be found within, as a process on my own path, leading to self-acceptance and trust. They radiate love and act as guides, nothing more. Just being around such mindful teachers makes one feels empowered, confident, and promotes well-being.

Lisa

*********************

Yes! That has been my experience. ULTIMATELY this is a DIY project! love jr

www.findyourgod.ca

*********************

Although many find an embodiment of their guru in physical form, keep in mind that the true guru dwells in the heart.

Namaste

Dirk

****************

Dear all those who responded

Yes the statement about the Guru dwelling within is true only for those rare individuals who have been blessed enough to comprehend this knowledge. Because in essence, it is the Guru who is Himself evolving Himself.

But as stated, such individuals who realise this are rare, and have perhaps already passed through the preliminary stages with regard to being faithful and worshiping a Guru in a physical form (be it in this life or a previous one), and have so made themselves pure and fit enough to receive this realization.

This can also explain the totally random awakenings that seem to fall upon people totally unexpected, (even those who did nothing spiritually up to the awakening in this life), that this is due to the previous spiritual efforts of the individual with connection to a Guru in a past life.

My initial email was not intended for these rare few who can comprehend that it is the Self evolving Itelf, but i take it that there are many here who can, and much respect to you.

So initially all aspirants will need to look outwards for a Preceptor or Guru, because like in all walks of life, to learn anything or get a P.H.D you need a teacher, and it is no different in the case of an aspirant thirsting after knowledge and realization. Even after one realizes this supreme truth, they should never disregard their Guru under any circumstance.

Much Love

James

*******************

> >Dear all those who responded
> >Yes the statement about the Guru dwelling within is true only for those
>rare
>individuals who have been blessed enough to comprehend this knowledge.
>Because in essence, it is the Guru who is Himself evolving Himself.
etc

Ok. But this is mere opinion, it's not a given/universal "truth". Your assertions don't have unquestionable authority, they just reflect a particular view. And if that's what gets you there, wonderful. No need for Dogma, fine film though it is. Brian

********************

Hi James,

Everything you say is a restatement of a belief that the seeker is not worthy and only the Guru is perfect.

Do you really truly in your heart believe that a seeker can reach, understand or channel divine grace in a paradigm that tells him he is inferior, unworthy and powerless? Do you think that this is the message of unconditional love?

In my view this is a hell path. I feel an enormous resentment running beneath your words - and quite right too. Everything must be balanced, including surrender.

Good luck with it,

Amanda

****************************

I may not have gotten all the emails, but I don't read James that way. If one feels any resentment, or discomfort with what he says, I would suggest that you look for the root of the feeling.

I don't 'know' squat...but the way I read James is that he is coming from a more Indian tradition (?)...and what he is stating is consistant with that paradigm. I don't have a problem with what he is saying...because that is where he is right now.

narda

****************

Hi Narda,

You misread me. Not my resentment, but his. It's why I posted.

:)

Amanda

****************

SO, who was the FIRST guru? love jr

*********************

--- Jack wrote:

> SO, who was the FIRST guru? love jr

The Serpent.

**********************

> Because I had a guru, I contributed every wonderful energy
> orgasmic experience to having him in my life.
Me too.

> I was confused for about 4 years. It's only been the last 6
> months or so that I'm beginning to get a handle on knowing
> the energy and knowing me. Sadly, I'm not totally at ease
> with it yet.

Going on 1 1/2 years now. I'm SOOO, at times, confused. And sad. Every orgasm now has him involved, every event gets started with a 'good bang', and meanwhile, time marches on and I feel so unconfident about going at it all on my own.

> I always thought if he went away, then kundalini would go away
> and a lot of the time it did. I'm still working through this
> one and it pains me to even share how dumb and gullible I've
> been, but I thought it might help someone else. I'd do

It's helping me, your sharing. Actually it's making it hard on me, that some of my denial around "Nobody else shares this, I must be making it up" is dropping.

> anything to be able to re- live my awakening and be
> one with Goddess, not a human being.

The times I can successfully transmute all thoughts, feelings, images of him to Goddess, it's so amazing. Most times though... I question myself for questionning him and his love. It's hard to find a place that's not combined happy/rocky - falling into and surrendering to him feels great (and rocky), puling away and surrendering to my heart & Goddess feels rocky (and great).

> When you feel or think of something that reminds you of your > ex-Guru, think of something else. Devotion to an iconic image

Can't I have both??! =/ I really don't want an ex-Guru. I want both Patriarchy and Matriarchy somehow. I really do feel both father and mother in my DNA, my spiritual legacy. I already know the answer, I'm just feeling *blah* about the work.

> associations. He calls it a "Swish" technique. Start with a
mental image of the thing you wish to disassociate from.

Swish is good.

"Swish!"

> change the energy transaction between you and your ex-Guru.
Just outside the oval field of your aura, create an extra

I set up something so that my eyesight was fade, or mist would fill the room and all about me, if I am being given energy that isn't for my highest good, or if I am giving energy in a way that's not highest. Strange that, to be humming along and suddenly go blind. On the one hand, yay! It works! On the other hand, holy crap. LOL.

So I release and it all clears up.

Thanks for sharing,

Sandra

**************

I don't think having a guru is a problem (it is such a rare experience anyway). I think that the problem is understanding what a proper/healthy relationship with a guru should be.

I think the whole problematic guru/student paradigm is why Buddhism stresses the 'lower' yanas. It might be helpful to know that there is a lot written about the proper relationship to spiritual friends and practicing Guru Yoga in Buddhist literature. I have some things I will post when I get back home, but one book that I just read had something very good on it:

Wild Awakening: The Heart of Mahamudra and Dzogchen, by Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche

Narda

***************

'The Dzogchen Primer' - essays compiled by Marcia Binder Schmidt

Two essays are "The Qualified Master" by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and "The Guru, the Vajra Master" by Chogyam Trungpa

also

'Guru Yoga' - by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

and

'Dangerous Friend: The Teacher-Student Relationship in Vajrayana Buddhism' - by Rig'dzin Dorje

Narda

*******************

>, (even those who did nothing spiritually up to the
>awakening in this life), that this is due to the previous spiritual efforts
of
>the individual with connection to a Guru in a past life.

Dear James,

Well, I personally find this a bit presumptuous! :) Certainly most of the great masters (such as Sri Ramana Maharshi) state such things "The Self is always directly perceived. There is no moment when it is not so. " and "To know that there never was ignorance is the goal of all the spiritual teachings." and "Bliss consists in not forgetting your being. How can you be otherwise than what you really are? "

And

Muktananda: "Though we talk about awakening the Kundalini, the truth is that everyone's Kundalini is already awake." p. 15 Muktananda

If we are all, always awakened then there no real need for a guru and never has been. It is within.

>My initial email was not intended for these rare few who can comprehend
that
>it is the Self evolving Itelf, but i take it that there are many here who
>can, and much respect to you.

Well, I think you'll find that probably half of list members have been spontaneously awakened.

>So initially all aspirants will need to look outwards for a Preceptor or
>Guru, because like in all walks of life, to learn anything or get a P.H.D
you
>need a teacher, and it is no different in the case of an aspirant
thirsting
>after knowledge and realization. Even after one realizes this supreme
truth,
>they should never disregard their Guru under any circumstance.

Granted some gurus can be helpful to bring awareness of one's natural state, but while some gurus can be helpful for some, they can also be an unfortunate trap and distraction for others.

Love, Hillary

********************

At 03:48 AM 11/22/2005, James wrote: >Dear all those who responded
> >Yes the statement about the Guru dwelling within is true only for those rare
>individuals who have been blessed enough to comprehend this knowledge.
>Because in essence, it is the Guru who is Himself evolving Himself.
>
>But as stated, such individuals who realise this are rare, and have perhaps
>already passed through the preliminary stages with regard to being faithful
>and worshiping a Guru in a physical form (be it in this life or a previous
>one), and have so made themselves pure and fit enough to receive this
>realization.

NONONO!!! Yikes! and No!

The inner Guru is in everyone. Why would unconditional love pick and choose like you suggest? Goddess doesn't judge, we are all Her creation.

Every person in the world has the inner Guru, the heart voice, gut instinct discernment. I have not met anyone who cannot learn to connect with that. Sometimes it takes a while to quiet the inner chatter of ego thoughts, clear out the entities and other false voices, but every one has an inner Guru!

>So initially all aspirants will need to look outwards for a Preceptor or
>Guru, because like in all walks of life, to learn anything or get a P.H.D
>you
>need a teacher, and it is no different in the case of an aspirant thirsting
>after knowledge and realization. Even after one realizes this supreme truth,
>they should never disregard their Guru under any circumstance.

Unconditional love does not create conditions like you suggest. Maybe your Guru told you differently, I would have to wonder why your Guru would want to disempower you like that! Of course, to impress you with his power and make you dependent.

Jesus hung out with sinners and whores, without judgment and that is the truth of the Divine... and back then too there were the Pharisees who had a vested interest in persuading everyone that the only way to God was through them.

God-dess does not judge if you are worthy... you are alive and human, a Divine manifestation so you are worthy!! The Divine is in everyone and everything.

What did you have to do to earn your soul? Nothing! Your body? Nothing! To learn to walk? Nothing! Learning to walk and talk is encoded in your DNA, it would happen even if you never saw an adult walking. All the tools for enlightenment are built in, and the path is similarly encoded.

"Seeks and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened." "All roads lead to Rome."

Enlightenment itself, is not so much about "learning." It is much more about letting go of what you think you know: the fears and limiting beliefs that keep you from realizing a direct experience of the Divine.

It is painful to read your email, compassion for you rips my heart open. No cake for this child, he was born on the wrong side of the tracks... That is what people do. Unconditional love doesn't need any of those games of who is specially blessed and who is not. Everyone has an inner Guru... even those who are not awakened. Everyone has a heart, everyone has a soul. Some folks may have misplaced theirs, but they do have one! Everyone has a capacity for love.

The Buddhists say "If you meet the Buddha one the road, kill him." Because as long as you think the Buddha is something outside of yourself you can never attain realization.

Gandhi said "The still small voice within, is the only tyrant I will obey." He was talking about the inner Guru.

Remember the 70's TV show, Magnum PI? He would say his "little voice" told him this, or that, how to proceed. Inner Guru!

When I am teaching people how to hear the inner Guru, quite often the biggest obstacle to them is thinking it is something they do not already have. The still small voice within, really is a quiet, genderless, calm little voice and Free Will is Goddess law so you can readily choose to ignore it. They have an expectation that it will be some loud booming voice of thunder, which must be obeyed... so they don't recognise the still small voice for what it is.

I sure didn't. I have had it always, but as a child it did not occur to me that the little voice that sometimes told me things that I could feel were true even though often they were not things I could logically know, really was God talking to little old me! I remember reading a book about Findhorn as a teenager, the woman Eileen who would lock herself in the bathroom and get advice from God directly.

I was jealous of her, thinking she must be so specially blessed... thinking she had something I did not, when I really had it all along, I just did not recognise it because it did not fit my expectations or my low self worth. I believed as you do, that only the special people get to have that sort of personal relationship with the Divine. My expectations kept me from recognising it.

Yet, even back then, friends would come to me for advice and I could put my head down on my desk, become still, and inwardly ask, and a quiet voice would respond, telling the truth. It did not occur to me to ask who, or what was speaking.

God-dess talks to everybody! Not everybody listens... even those who do listen, may never recognise who or what they are hearing. It is the Divine Comedy, so the Buddha laughs... and the Divine tragedy... he laughs because it hurts too much to cry. Heart ripped open with compassion for the folly of the human condition.

MAS

***************

I have been reading every-one's posts with great interest on these two topics. I find MAS's theories about psychoses often developing in Guru's who are worshipped as the embodiment of God really resonates with my own personal experiences and research. This is the first time I've heard this theory or heard it fully explained in this way. But it seems most Guru's who are worshipped as God-men/God-women and present themselves as the "Way" do most often end up being highly controversial figures embroiled in all sorts of scandals and controversy, wich are downplayed, denied, rationalized and ignored by earnest loving devotees. They often lose their brilliance, their spiritual "Shine" so to speak.

A year I ago I would have defended myself against these ideas saying that "ego's want to do everything for themselves", the man who is his own Guru has a fool for a disciple", "questioning the need for a Guru is like the earth questioning it's need to rotate around the sun" and other oft-repeated justifications from the Guru-Bhakti (devotion) tradition. Actually these do apply to the Subjective inner Guru.

I'm not sure if Guru devotion is patriarchal or matriarchal because I find such terms are way too loaded with psychological baggage and implications. But I suppose they are necessary for some distinctions.

I don't want to completely deny the value of Guru worship because there are some examples of people like Irina Tweedie (Sufi mystic) who have actually managed to give themselves over completely to a Guru and have certainly "attained" much (or should I say dropped much). But if you read her thick sadhana diary "Daughter of Fire" you will see that it was many years and hours of miserable self negation self-denial involved. If there is another way I will take it!!

Most valuable is a guide, an inspirational figure, who will empower each of us, not through flattery and other techniques of the "self-esteem" movement. But through recognizing the Divine essence of us, by nurturing that Divine expression within us to maturity, by having faith in the student rather than requiring the students' faith, by enabling us to know and release our "dark side" or "ego" because we can resort to Inner Guru.

The devotee in the Guru-devotion tradition fears relying on himself, because he fears being deceived by his own "dark side" or ego. And for good reason. We all know people who are apparently so full of themselves that they don't even realize how ridiculous they appear to others who don't buy into their image. However chances are that this type of person does not spend much time in self-reflection and has not connected with any inner Wisdom. In fact they probably unconsciously avoid such for what it would reveal.

I realize now that this fear is based on the unconscious presumption that there is no inner Guru. How could you know it when all your guidance and knowledge and energy has always come from without?

meridian

**********************

I don't understand controlling type so-called guru-people who are more interested in their own self-righteouness in isolating individuals and denying them a certain part of themselves. I would jump off that wagon in a heartbeat, and snatch my soul back quicker than they could wink an eye. My understanding is that a guru works as or is sort of like a go between myself and the creator. (I am aware there are many varieties of belief, all due respects)

A guru can be alot of different people and things... everyday people, a picture of space, animals, plants, mushrooms, a clear running mountain stream, a good friend, someone you trust, basically anything that can help show the way, or that we can be inspired/stimulated to raise our energy from. I think the guru and 'student' create a dynamic that is based more on equality, evolving to a state that does not imply ownership or superiority. The key is simply respect, and appreciation. The relationship should be open.

If someone chooses to leave any relationship, the guru/friend should bless that. Not do what it takes to retain his/her soul. Perhaps there is a slight clash cultures on this one. Or some people just go off more strict and fundamental constructs. Or take it too seriously all the time?

'having no destination i am never lost' -ikkyu

mjs

*****************

> Can't I have both??! =/ I really don't want an ex-Guru. I want both
> Patriarchy and Matriarchy somehow. I really do feel both father and
> mother in my DNA, my spiritual legacy. I already know the answer, I'm
> just feeling *blah* about the work.
Dear Sandra, this is something I feel inclined to answer, to share my own experience on it, even though it doesn't involve a guru.

I still feel a strong connection to a personal mantra I was given. I feel joy in letting it flow with my breath, because it does, spontaneously. I entered a crisis period because it's in essense a "Shiva" mantra, whereas my commitment is generally to Goddess worship. So how can I repeat within me a 'male' mantra and direct my attention to something 'female' ?

I surrendered, and a new layer of conflict came up. Then another layer of conflict. I would get no satisfaction whatsoever. I surrendered the mantra, along with a bunch of fears. Mantra came back. I surrendered the whole idea of conflict in the first place, in the non-dual there's no difference. Conflict came back in another layer. What the heck? I studied tantric scriptures, that said that Shiva is Shakti, and Shakti is Shiva, and you will find either through the other. So what was my problem then?

I was led to ask Wife about it. She received an image of my Divine Beloved in joyful bliss every time the mantra was resounded. She would happily take it and carry it around her neck or around her waist, as ornaments, as offerings given to her. She is connected to the infinite and sees no difference, and told me that giving up the mantra would be a very sad and unecessary event in my life.

Suddenly everything was coming together in one unity. A process of alchemy. :)

Yes the mantra was given to me from a guru. But there are no strings attached, no obligations to meditate on him. In fact I was even told I can take it with me no matter where I go, no matter who or were my guru is, outer or inner.

In the end, Tantra is the union of Matriarchy and Patriarchy. Shiva and Shakti. What I've just written about, is such a process within me.

Right now, the emphasis on Matriarchy and the Goddess is very important, because our society, our conditioning is very heavy on Patriarchy. We need the balance and the Mother back.

In the end, the Mother will take you to the Father, and the Father will take you to the Mother. Nothing wrong with loving the Father as well. I sure do. The infinite ocean. Not the Smite Thee with Lightning Wrathful Vengeful Father in the Clouds.

As you said, you already know the answer, but I still felt inclined to share! :)

Namaste
Gustaf

****************

Thank you, Gustaf, for sharing. I found your experience very meaningful for myself at this time. I recently attended a Bon healing workshop with Tenzen Wangzul Rinpoche (sp?). It involved visualization of a female diety. After two days, visualization was becoming more intense...and at that moment the face of my own teacher interfered. Mantra/prayer/visualization on a diety only brought me forcefully to connect with my current teacher...and I felt conflict. I spent the week examining that conflict, and that brought new insights and resolutions.

Sometimes I forget that this a constantly spiraling process of re-integration.

Narda

****************************

i have had some very profound experiences (and not very pleasurable) with my k- awakaning. It has not been easy, in fact its been downright traumatic. Due to my ignorance of the whole process i have at times tried to force the "stored" trauma in my body out which backfired severly, i had a pyscotic episode and am now recovering form a deep "clinical depression". my kundalini was out of control until someone led me to a wonderful guru. i recieved the intitiation. i have not fully recoverd, (my take a while but i guess this is my karma.)

It is , in my humble opinion NOT wise to break connection to a true guru. they are our teacher and guide and are resopnsible for us during this process which can be hazerdous if left on our own. Anyone envolved in working with k, I highly recomend staying with a guru (if they are pure and true) which is becomming more hard to find these days!!!

i know of few that i would stay with in terms of kundalini energy, ,Gurumayi and sri Andima (both who give shaktipat) and Ammachi, Sri ma. I have heard of many people who are devoted to the path that have been having wonderful experinces for many years and then all of a sudden come face to face with some major garbage that they don't know how to handle.

(P.S., remember our ego is very cunning and one of the traps along this process is to "think we can go it on our own" (BIG EGO TRIP). hope this helps

love and light
akash

*****************

"Enlightenment itself, is not so much about "learning." It is much more about letting go of what you think you know: the fears and limiting beliefs that keep you from realizing a direct experience of the Divine." ....Mystress

Thank you for this wonderful insight. I was going to write my thoughts about this but just felt it would clutter up the beauty of the message.

VIVI

****************

Intersting view points, and none are wrong.

Whether you realize that the Guru does lie within can be judged on how much progress you are making spiritually. How far have you come realizing this? Have your judgements as your own Guru been for your own good? Or is it you would just prefer to have control?

If anything i think we can all agree that this whole thing (spirituality) is indeed an unknown quantity, we really do know what's around the corner, or what's in front. A kind of groping in the dark. And if you are in a dark forest and you cannot see where to go, then you need someone with a light, and preferably someone who has trodden the path before to show you the way the destination.

If you haven't got a light, then how can you see the path let alone the destination?

James

***************

IMHO, Enlightenment is an active verb, a continuing process, not a noun.

jr

************

I had the great pleasure of spending some time in conversation with the late Dr.Lee Sannella. He told me he was a Guru junky [his own words] Finally after spending time with Muktananda ; Muktananda told him to "Go Away, you got to do it yourself."

ULTIMATELY this IS a DYI project. love jr

www.findyourgod.ca

*****************

At 09:27 AM 11/23/2005, Jack wrote:

>I had the great pleasure of spending some time in conversation with the late
>Dr.Lee Sannella. He told me he was a Guru junky [his own words]

Dr. Lee died? I did not know. Thanks.

I have heard Shakti Gaiwan is a Guru Junkie too. Goes to see everybody, gets all the Shaktipat she can, anywhere she can find it. I tend to think it is beneficial to learn from a variety of teachers... each may have something to offer.

I never had a single Guru, but I had many... and some of them were rocks and trees!

>Finally after spending time with Muktananda ; Muktananda told him to "Go
>Away, you


>got to do it yourself."
>ULTIMATELY this IS a DYI project. love jr
>www.findyourgod.ca

Yea.

MAS

*****************

In a message dated 11/23/2005 9:08:20 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, James:

>If you haven't got a light, then how can you see the path let alone the >destination?

Dear James,

You always have/are the light. That's the whole point! :)

>Whether you realize that the Guru does lie within can be judged on how much
>progress you are making spiritually. How far have you come realizing this?

There is no progress to be made. You are "t/here" already.

>Have your judgements as your own Guru been for your own good? Or is it you
would
>just prefer to have control?

Well, in my way of thinking, you are asking to try to keep control by having a Guru as intermediary! In any case, one doesn't control Kundalini! ;)

That said, having a teacher can be helpful, especially when going through crises. I see this list as a collective guru. Everyone on it is my teacher.

Have a great Thanksgiving everyone!

Love, Hillary

**************************

At 09:07 AM 11/23/2005, James wrote:
>Intersting view points, and none are wrong.

>Whether you realize that the Guru does lie within can be judged on how much >progress you are making spiritually. How far have you come realizing this?

Not my place to judge that. "By the fruits are they known."
However, I have attained almost all of my spiritual goals.

>Have your judgements as your own Guru been for your own good? Or is it
>you would just prefer to have control?

Haha! Truth, leaders are born not made, and it is embedded in my DNA to refuse to surrender to anyone but Goddess within myself.

In the earlier part of my life, I sought a Guru or teacher... but the first time they said something that was not resonant to me, that my own inner voice and instinct did not feel was true, I was outa there!! They had shown themselves not worthy to be God for me.

At that time I did not call my inner guidance "inner Guru" but that is what it is.

The first step in realizing the inner Guru is learning resonance and discernment... and everyone has that built in, whether they are awakened or not.

>If anything i think we can all agree that this whole thing (spirituality) is
>indeed an unknown quantity, we really do know what's around the corner, or
>what's in front. A kind of groping in the dark. And if you are in a dark
>forest and you cannot see where to go, then you need someone with a
>light, and
>preferably someone who has trodden the path before to show you the way the
>destination.

There are plenty of guides who do not require you to project God onto them at all, certainly not at the expense of believing it is in them and not in you.

Certainly there is benefit in Satsangh, spiritual company to remind us of Truth when we forget... but that is not the same as giving your Divine power away to a Guru who tells you that they are specially chosen by God and you are not!

>If you haven't got a light, then how can you see the path let alone the >destination?

Everybody has a light! I see the light in you. I can also see from what you have written, that you do not want to believe in that. Why not?

MAS

**************

At 04:35 PM 11/22/2005, daniel tynan wrote:
>I have been reading every-one's posts with great interest on these two
>topics. I find MAS's theories about psychoses often developing in Guru's
>who are worshipped as the embodiment of God really resonates with my own
>personal experiences and research. This is the first time I've heard this
>theory or heard it fully explained in this way.

I have not encountered it either. Much of what I teach are universal spiritual truths, I am not the first to say them and I won't be that last... but this essay is different. Pieced together myself from observation of patterns and a whack of experience and direct inspiration, including my own experiences in the 90's, with playing at the Guru game and getting stuck in stuff that others would not surrender.

> I don't want to completely deny the value of Guru worship because there
> are some examples of people like Irina Tweedie (Sufi mystic) who have
> actually managed to give themselves over completely to a Guru and have
> certainly "attained" much (or should I say dropped much). But if you
> read her thick sadhana diary "Daughter of Fire" you will see that it was
> many years and hours of miserable self negation self-denial involved. If
> there is another way I will take it!!

There is a distinction between negation of the ego self, and negation of the Self by thinking someone else is specially blessed and you are not. Kundalini erodes the ego so the Self can be revealed.

I was quite inspired by Yogananda's autobiography, but there was one thing that troubled me. Near the end there is a story of how his dead Guru appeared to him, and Yogananda was right back on his knees, worshipping.

I think it is good to honour and respect your teachers, but don't you graduate at some point and become equals? Yogananda's achievements arguably outstripped those of his teacher but the hierarchy persisted even after his teacher was dead!

> The devotee in the Guru-devotion tradition fears relying on himself,
> because he fears being deceived by his own "dark side" or ego. And for
> good reason. We all know people who are apparently so full of themselves
> that they don't even realize how ridiculous they appear to others who
> don't buy into their image.

I agree, but I also realize a prophet is not appreciated in their own land. The actions of an inspired being may appear as ridiculous as a Sufi clown. We see ourselves reflected, inevitably.

Osho is often ridiculed and misunderstood because of having 93 Rolls Royces. I dismissed the Bagwan out of hand myself, back in the day for the same reason. I did not get the joke. He was trying to demonstrate the unimportance of the material!

Apparently it went:
Osho: Why are you giving me money?
Devotees: We love you and want you to have only the best of everything.
Osho: What do you think is the best?
Devotees: Like a rolex or a Rolls Royce.
Osho: If you think it is important...

So his devotees expressed their love for him, by buying him 93 RR cars and a shitload of gold watches... and some, by poisoning a small town. Yes, it is ridiculous to think that love can be expressed that way. It is not any part of his teachings, so it was obvious that the devotees were not listening, not hearing.

Osho believed that sometimes you have to release your karma by fulfilling it.

> I realize now that this fear is based on the unconscious presumption
> that there is no inner Guru. How could you know it when all your
> guidance and knowledge and energy has always come from without?

No, sorry... I am really not buying that victim excuse. The unconscious is Divine, it is ego that wants to believe in limitations and give power away. I think everyone has had the experience of choosing to ignore their gut instinct and follow the carrot of ego desire dangling... same for you, eh?

Every child is told not to touch the hot stove, and every child is curious by nature and at some point will seek verification and touch the hot stove!

We all hear "God is love, God is All, you are a child of God" but do we believe it? Probably not. So, along comes karma, sometimes in the form of a Guru and burnt fingers.

MAS

*****************

>akash wrote:
>remember our ego is very cunning and one of the traps along this
>process is to "think we can go it on our own" (BIG EGO TRIP).
>hope this helps

It's more like "I get by with a little help from my friends"

I am never alone. How am I ever on my own? The little lost ego feels alone sometimes, but that is illusion. Spirit, true Self are constantly resonating in everyone all the time. Our mind, like a radio dial, can fine tune into intuitively receiving this frequency, which I liken to the Inner Guru. It comes with focused listening and awarenes, practice and patience. Letting go of old patterns and beliefs. I don't think it belongs to anyone really, or that some person can just put their name or stamp on it. It is for everyone. Most people it seems choose not to follow their own bliss and don't even pick up on the signal. We all have receivers, but first you got to plug it in, turn it on, or maybe even rewire it...

modulating...

undulating...

echoing...

If your antennae are down, the signal just skips over or perhaps they are just part way up and you are just satisfied with a linear signal of precepts or purports, or blindly following some external leader. Or maybe you are receiving but still caught up in some duality of fear. Which is all fine and good if that's where one is at, but it seems extremely limiting. Stay open to new awareness, coming thru different people, animals, beings, or changing stations. Don't let some small ego trip of needing some sort of status or clinging to something external because of fear get in the way of realizing...

THE BIG EGO TRIP of loving yourself and knowing that there is no difference between 'us and them' (like the pink floyd song)

And with THIS BIG EGO we find the guru hiding in 'every strangers eyes'. Humility automatically comes with this understanding. But I don't think humility is something to get hung up on.

_____

I understand the need for some sort of guide or support, especially for those coming out of a severe depression, etc. I have been there, and latched (or should I say projected on) people who I thought were my guru. They helped me some sure, but then I found out they're no different. no worse. no better than me. sometimes disappointing. (but those were my expectations) I didn't throw them away. Mostly just think of them as neat people, or crazy characters. Or like mirrors. A few might still be buddies or sources of inspiration. But they are not the 'God Incarnate' that I sometimes believed. Now I am transforming my connection to the guru. I no longer feel spiritually needy...

When I do need help, as in something unexpected coming upon my path, it never fails I meet someone or find something that helps me get thru. That is trusting in the power of the soul, or that inner divine wisdom. You are always looking out after yourself. Do something and feel good about it. Be grateful,

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone on this helpful list...

Mike

********************

Who says we need a guru to find the light, or to find God? This is an Eastern Concept. It may be wrong. What if our connection to the light, or to God is already within?

mark

*************

Why is it that some argument came up and it is always blamed on the "Eastern concept" ?

The eastern concept taught you that the guru is within you...

Anyway I agreed with most of the argument. We don't need a guru.

Or to put it another way, everyone is our guru. Just stop, listen, observe and you will learn.

Sam

******************

At 09:21 AM 11/23/2005, Jack wrote: >IMHO, Enlightenment is an active verb, a continuing process, not a noun.
>www.findyourgod.ca

Yes. En-lighten-ment. The more you surrender the lighter you feel!

MAS

*****************

Dear Angel(lique)

You may be right, but personally i feel a great security in surrendering my life to my Master (Paramahansa Yogananda). It is not that i am giving away my divine power to him as you suggested, why would i want to do that? Rather, it is a surrendering of my old self, my lower self to him, for the purpose of him re-building me into something more divine (hopefully if i have made myself worthy!).

I cannot but help recalling the words of one of the most popular Gurus in the west, Jesus.
He said: "empty thyself, and i shall fill thee".

This is my aim with my beloved Master.
Hopefully i will make myself worthy.

Much love to you

James

****************

James,

Although I have enjoyed the conversation about this subject very much, you have said one thing that is very important to address. You are already 'worthy'.

It's that type of thinking that puts you in a place with the guru and yourself that can be life/ emotion threatening.

Know you are worthy and learn from that point of view and your progress will take off beyond your wildest dreams. A man that thinks he is unworthy to be a child of God, has forgotten who his father is.

L,

Susanne (e.a.)

**************

God help those who help themselves.

Sam

****************

Hi U All; [stepping out of the closet this morning]

Anyone that has had the experience that Muktananda called the "Blue Pearl" then GROKS that our very essence is pure consciousness. Your ultimate surrender is to THIS, your essence. Further, IMHO,the major constituent of this essence is Cosmos embracing LOVE.

www.findyourgod.ca

******************

Can you let go of everything that makes you who you
>are? Regards

>KJ

> eh, eh, what is it that makes someone "who they are" the things you do, habbits and ways you've trained to be, act & reactions? preceptions can change? the way you respond to life? can you let go of god? or of the earth? or of a connection to either of them? seems like the "less grounded" to the earth i am, the more quickly i'll change, but that really just means, rather than being connected to earth, and root, connected to space, stars, super novas? black holes? crazy time warps?? all with trust? been rubbin' my gut, talkin to my soul latly, we all seem to like a little less yellow/happyness, little more blue/sadness, peacefull, quiet sadness? calming, relaxing? understanding, guess i learn more that way? eh..eh.. happy turkey day ! GOBBLE GOBBLE -kicks raw food diet for the day-

jason

*******************

At 05:38 AM 11/24/2005, James wrote:
>Dear Angel(lique)

Heh, that is how hubby tells people to spell my name. Angel with an EEEEK!!! Cracks me up.

> >You may be right, but personally i feel a great security in surrendering my
>life to my Master (Paramahansa Yogananda).

No Guru like a dead Guru!

This post sort of gave me the giggles though. Channelling a dead Master is even more prone to ego distortion than connecting with the inner Guru. (Shrug) You are happy with it though, so don't mind me..

*************

I've been on the K-list for less than a year now, and I find it interesting that this thread about Guru's has been the most active one since I've been here. People have no problem quoting Ramana Maharshi, (who btw said most people need a living guru) yet the thought of surrendering to a living, breathing teacher seems to strike fear and all kinds of protestations about the 'inner' teacher is all there is...but my (rhetorical) question is what are you so afraid of--if you have to protest?

sue

*************

There's nothing wrong with taking wisdom where one finds it! :)) The question is whether (or not) to surrender to anyone other than one's self.

Hillary

***************

Surrender to a Guru and make them responsible for your life, growth, and karma? I would never recommend it. I don't think it is wise, so I would advise not to.

Actually surrenduring to a guru in a way that is consensual and stops after it is over, in my mind sounds like an interesting prospect.

Living on the other side, of total devotion to a person, may be a real polarity twist.

The idea of living the karma in the face of a Guru seems to bring light to a certain aspect, that would never come out to be seen.

Sometimes I drift off into a power game. The habitual power games one might play from day to day, either get played out with unsuspecting people, or get chopped off with the surrender axe. This is the case it seems in my life. Perhaps letting them play out in a safe environment can be helpful.

But I probably won't ever surrender to a guru.

Ultimatly if you turn outwards to a Guru, you will have that experience. If you don't, then you will have another.

scott

****************

Perhaps the question should be, who here has ever even HAD a guru relationship. I consider myself to be so fortunate. All I can say, is that the conversation so far has not begun to touch it.

Narda

***************

I have. It is the most intimate relationship of a lifetime...cannot be defined by any other, parents, romantic, friendship, etc...all that and so much more and inexplicable to anyone who hasn't experienced it.

sue

****************

Hey Hillary,

Is there anyone other than one's self? (and not even that)

Love,

Sue

************

Dear Narda,

Well, we did a poll back in 1999...

http://www.kundalini-gateway.org/polls/po_guru.html

Perhaps it's time we did another. ;)

Sue writes:

>Is there anyone other than one's self? (and not even that)
>>

:)) Touche!

But in that case, again, why is another person needed?

If a person is having problems, a guru may (or may not) be helpful. But who is to determine just how enlightened a guru is?

I've seen people both helped and hurt by gurus.
_http://kundalini-support.com/jerry.html_
Jerry was a list member some years back.

Yogananda visited Sri Ramana Maharshi Nov. 29th 1935. He asked through his secretary "How shall I realise God?" He asked "How to get Bliss" He asked "How is the spiritual uplift of the people to be effected? What are the instructions to be given them?"

Does that mean that the Guru Yogananda needed a guru? It's a fascinating exchange, BTW.

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "The Guru may be internal or external. he may reveal Himself internally or communicate externally."

A guru might be able to steer a person in the "right" direction--if, that is, a person is "searching" and isn't where s/he wants to be. If that is, there is anywhere to go.

A chinese fortune cookie sometime back " If you don't know where you're going you can't get lost" similar to Mike's " 'having no destination i am never lost' -ikkyu

Love, Hillary

***************

I understand this subject is getting tiresome. It boils down to two distinct views, and I think both are right. For some , surrendering to a guru is a great thing, and I certainly wouldn't discount that. But it would also be fair to say that some are just born with a sense of Self, and learn by surrendering to their own Inner Voice. For example, like a self taught artist who with no formal training or teaching exceeds those that do...

The thought also occured of the student/disciple who eventually surpasses his/her teacher in their understanding. What happens then? Do the roles reverse?

And finally, I automatically think of the John Lennon song 'I Found Out' when this subject comes up. One verse is as follows:

Old Hare Krishna got nothing on you
Just keep you crazy with nothing to do
Keep you occupied with pie in the sky
There ain't no guru who can see through your eyes

Personally, I just don't think there are that many 'real' 'true to the bone' gurus living upon this earth. They are few and far between. I've yet to meet anyone that I believe understands everything that is going on that I would surrender my soul too. Granted, there are a couple people I have met who certainly know alot. But they have their problems and bad habits to deal with too...

Mike

**************

I'm not tired of it of the subject. While it is not k-specific, it is part of one path to realization. Anyone care to discuss it further elsewhere, another list, I would be game.

Narda

****************

We could take it to the Kundalini_p list if you like.

_http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kundalini_p/_

But I don't mind it continuing here as well. There's always the delete button. ;)

I'll be putting the entire discussion into the "threads" section of the gateway site. It's been a really informative one, I think.

Might be good if we had a few more pro guru posts to add to the thread.

***************

From what I have read the typical "surrender to me" Guru operation runs like the pyramid scheme sales business. The Guru will often warn about the dangers of not having the Guru-disciple relationship that they are presenting.

Consider the link that was written in the thread titled "different types of K", where the author explains that if one made their Guru angry that they would curse their Kundalini.

After stripping away the "surrender to me" aspect of a Guru-disciple relationship, I think you are left with a friendship... someone to ask for advice from.

When K first arose I said "there is no way I can handle this better become a monk now". Then I started surrendering to God then I stopped seeing the sense in surrendering to a Guru. Now I just ask them questions.

A good Guru is good, but everyone screws up sometimes. God doesn't.

Wouldn't it be better to communicate with God?

Scott

*****************

I submitted a piece to another K site. It was rejected with a note that they only accepted the teachings of THEIR guru! Jealous gurus????? I think we need international QUALITY CONTROL of gurus!

love jr

www.findyourgod.ca

********************

At 04:36 PM 12/1/2005, suebrd wrote:
>I've been on the K-list for less than a year now, and I find it
>interesting that this thread about Guru's has been the most active one
>since I've been here. People have no problem quoting Ramana Maharshi,
>(who btw said most people need a living guru) yet the thought of
>surrendering to a living, breathing teacher seems to strike fear and all
>kinds of protestations about the 'inner' teacher is all there is...but my
>(rhetorical) question is what are you so afraid of--if you have to protest?
>
> --s

I also quote Far Side cartoons, TV shows, science fiction novels, comedians, pop songs... Goddess can speak to me through any medium, what is quotable is that which has the resonance of truth. The name or form of the medium, is secondary. Resonance is internal, part of the inner Guru. I serve Her within myself and have none before.

Can you really say that every word your Guru has ever said to you has been totally resonant? I'd guess, no... probably you use resonance to check for truth, and pick and choose what to fully accept. If so, you are really serving the inner Guru first, after all.

I don't think it is really about fear of Gurus. I think it is about a power chakra instinct for soverignty.

MAS

*****************

There are 3 kinds of people: those with no external guru, those with one and it turned out bad, and those with one that turned out good.

I can only speak from personal experience. I have, essentially, been in a guru relationship. Every person on every Buddhist website dissagrees with me on this...because their guru relationship is 'authentic' and stands for 'quality control'. Very wise...considering what is out there passing themselves off as gurus...as well as the caliber of the students looking for this.

The most accessible book I have read on this subject is "Dangerous Friend: The Teacher-Student Relationship in Vajrayana Buddhism" by Rigdzin Dorje.

My 'guru' has absolutely no idea of his effect on my mental/enery/and spiritual opening. He does not claim anything other than to be what he is...just a guy teaching a martial art. For convenience sake, he is the form of the guru...but the real guru is the one within. The external 'guru' is a catalyst, but the work of realization is done by the student.

Narda

******************

At 07:19 PM 12/1/2005, Scott wrote:

>Sometimes I drift off into a power game. The habitual power games one might
>play from day to day, either get played out with unsuspecting people, or get
>chopped off with the surrender axe. This is the case it seems in my life.
>Perhaps letting them play out in a safe environment can be helpful.

Acting out your stuff consensually can be very beneficial, and enlightening... but there are plenty of psychiatric methods and other support groups which do this without anything to do with a Guru.

MAS

****************

At 08:01 PM 12/1/2005, suebrd wrote:
>"Narda ... wrote: Perhaps the
>question should be, who here has ever even HAD a guru relationship.
...
> I have. It is the most intimate relationship of a lifetime...cannot be
> defined by any other, parents, romantic, friendship, etc...all that and
> so much more and inexplicable to anyone who hasn't experienced it.

I never had a Guru, though I had some amazing teachers. I speak of the perceptions from the other side, of having spent some years *being* a Guru, to a very intense degree, and with the unusual amount of permission or "elbow room" affoarded by using BDSM as a format. That is where I get my intimate understanding of the power dynamic, and the pitfalls.

Most of the people who were my devotees do indeed consider themselves to have been very fortunate, and I am glad to know them, although not always entirely comfortable that they still feel so indebted after all the time that has passed. There were also people whose dependence on me was not good for either of us, and one way or another I persuaded them to find another teacher.

you are right, words cannot describe the intensity, intimacy, levels of trust and honesty involved in a good Guru- Devotee relationship. That is what makes it so attractive, and addictive.

In the end though, as Jack quoted, it is a Do-it yourself project. Nobody can give you what you already have, and you cannot truly find your Self anywhere or any way but by and within Your Self.

Seeking is an ego game. Ego decides how long the game has to go on before it ends and you see it for the game it is. Ego has a belief of what is required and won't be satisfied until it is validated or forcibly disproved. The latter is unlikely, Free Will is Goddess' Law.

Call it a path. How far do you think you are from your destination and how many steps you believe it will take to reach it, what route must be taken. What guides are required. All to arrive at a place you never left, and see it as if for the first time.

MAS

****************

At 03:37 PM 12/2/2005, MJSafran wrote:

> It boils down to two distinct views, and I think both are right. For
> some , surrendering to a guru is a great thing, and I certainly wouldn't
> discount that. But it would also be fair to say that some are just born
> with a sense of Self, and learn by surrendering to their own Inner
> Voice. For example, like a self taught artist who with no formal
> training or teaching exceeds those that do...

I agree, that some folks are born with talents others don't possess. Everybody gets talents, limitless manifestation likes variety. If we can get our talents to mesh with our lifestyle then there is ease and flow. A good friend said that one weakness in my teaching style is I expect people to know things, because some things are so obvious to me. When the chakras of information are opened in others, those things become more obvious to them, too.

> The thought also occured of the student/disciple who eventually
> surpasses his/her teacher in their understanding. What happens then? Do
> the roles reverse?

In some old stories, they do... in recent ones, often not. Like I mentioned, it felt wrong to me when Yogananda's dead Master showed up, and Yogananda was right back on his knees.

I find truth and beauty of whole body rushes and goosebumps in the last words of "Tommy" , after his devotees revolt against his teachings and thus, set him free from the illusion of leadership:
He sings to his seekers:

Listening to you,
I get the music.
Gazing at you,
I get the heat.
Following you,
I climb the mountains.
I get excitement at your feet.

Right behind you,
I see the millions.
On you,
I see the glory.
From you,
I get opinions.
From you,
I get the story.

It is like how I feel about the list, and about realization being in a state of constant amazement to see your Divine Self everywhere and in everything.

What is there to teach? You are It. You don't believe it. When will you? Then comes the ego procrastination. All the excuses why not right now?

I'll be awake/enlightened/realized/actualized when I am, have, did, ... when the head guy does the hokey pokey and rattles the bones. When the 7 millionth mantra is said. When you have the right car and shiny white teeth.

Seeking itself, is an ego game. Self realization is a big "Duh, how could I have not guessed it before?" IT is obvious, and ordinary.

I don't speak out about who I think are bad Gurus, (they all suck! LOL!! Just kidding) because if it is your karma to have a Guru and get thumped or not, then you will. Wanting to find the Divine someplace outside of yourself will lead to whatever it takes to work out the karma of that limiting belief.

You are It. The Self. You don't believe it, don't want to take responsibility for your life, feel unworthy or think it must be earned with effort.. You won't get the brass ring until the having becomes more important than the excuses and reasons why not. Seeking is just marking time till you let go of seeking and realize there never was anywhere to go, but here and now.

Having said that, .. there is value to personal development.

I remember reading an old story, a Guru sat on his step, while a man writhed screaming and fighting himself at his feet. A bystander asks what is going on and the Guru says the man is fighting a demon. The bystander asks why the Guru doesn't help. The Guru responds with something to the effect that the man has to beat his demons by himself or the attainment has no value.

> Personally, I just don't think there are that many 'real' 'true to the
> bone' gurus living upon this earth. They are few and far between. I've
> yet to meet anyone that I believe understands everything that is going on
> that I would surrender my soul too. Granted, there are a couple people
> I have met who certainly know alot. But they have their problems and bad
> habits to deal with too...

I think it is healthy to see spiritual teachers as human beings. There are a lot of mythical ideals about enlightenment that make it appear as if enlightenment is like valium, you become some sort of always happy peaceful perfect robot. The myth makers ignore the evidence of the gifted one's essential humanity. Jesus beat on traders and cursed a fig tree to death. Even the most enlightened sage can have a bad habit or a bad haircut. "Bad hair day." I think there is perfection in it, because enlightenment really makes you more fully human.

MAS

****************

Leonard Cohen reworded: "Forget your perfect offering,
There is crack in everything.
This were the light comes in."

I design and build firniture ,when I am not writing.
I am never satisfied with a piece. I KNOW the hidden flaw.
But knowing "the crack in everthing" lets the "light come in" and I won't repeat the mistake.
I would judge the gurus by the contribution they make rather than their flaws,their "cracks".

love jr www.findyourgod.ca

************************

Good one! :-) Besides, one gets too attached to the guru and becomes too dependent... Don't think that that is good. I think one has to sort out one's karma by oneself and not by surrendering it to a live Guru... Heard someone say awhile back , learn the teachings and don't idolised the guru or something to that effect.

My 2 cents worth.. :-

Sam

*****************

You never leave your guru...you are never seperated. From a psychological viewpoint, I think one 'imprints' on an external guru, compartmentalizes a part of ones psyche as 'teacher'.

Narda

******************

Mystress wrote:
>Seeking is just
>marking
>time till you let go of seeking and realize there never was anywhere to
>go,
>but here and now.

I somehow thought of the Jefferson Airplane lyric for 'Crown of Creation'

You are the Crown of Creation
You are the Crown of Creation
and you've got no place to go.
Soon you'll attain the stability you strive for
in the only way that it's granted
in a place among the fossils of our time

We already are. I like the 'Tommy' analogy. Ironically I just watched that movie recently. Found it at the library. The one with Elton John singing pinball wizard and Tina Turner giving Tommy acid. I prefer the original soundtrack however, and I heard the Live at Leeds version is great too...

Bob Dylan said it best when he wrote,
'I was so much older then, I'm younger then that now'

We just have to remember our Self. If we all get too hung up on the actual 'seeking' we often forget we already know...

mike

******************

As far as gurus having imperfections and making mistakes, that seems perfectly natural. How can one be completely perfect in dealing with something or someone imperfect. When I help remodel homes I realize this. If I don't make mistakes I'm not really doing anything. In other words, they just seem natural. Or part of the perfection puzzle itself... maybe it all depends how we process them, or use them to find a solution or answer. how can we know mistakes without making them first? I would guess that some experience helps. But I always seem to just learn as I go...

mike

*****************



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