To: K-list
Recieved: 1999/12/14 22:21
Subject: Re: [K-list] Re: Hypnagogic Entities
From: Wim Borsboom
On 1999/12/14 22:21, Wim Borsboom posted thus to the K-list:
Dear El,
Appreciate your post.
I wrote amongst other things:
>>... trying to make ppl. discover that
>>there is only reality and that suffering is illusion.
You wrote:
>A yogi (or some sort of spiritually inclined fellow, distinguishable from
the
>arty-farty crowd by his impeccable all-white clothing) stood up from the
back
>of the room and announced, "There is no suffering! Pain is an illusion!"
>To which the poet shouted back, "You stay here -- I'm going out to my car
and
>getting my gun. When I come back, I'm going to shoot you and we'll see
what
>an illusion pain is!"
>The yogi beat a fast retreat out of the building and was never seen at a
>reading again.
So your yogi (x) said:
"There is no suffering! Pain is an illusion!"
I'm not suggesting that I was that yogi guy about 30 years ago in Berkeley,
I could very well have been. I was there at that time in Berkeley, not in
that cafe specifically. I may very well have been dressed in white, not so
impeccably though, camping in California was a dusty business. What words
would I have used? The same words as I wrote in my post as quoted above?
Absolutely, when I was 14 years old I used the same words and kept
standing... I was 22 and kept standing still... the gun lowered. Did that
enlighten ppl. What do I know? It did enlighten me. I am 55 and yesterday I
stood. Have been standing, have been on the floor, been both. Not sure at
this moment whether I am alive or whatever... :-) Who can tell, how can we
know?
Is there a difference between his and my words, semantics?
There is a difference between verbiage and understanding. But you could very
well add: "There is a difference between understanding and standing and
remaining standing as the gun is being aimed."
You see the difference? Compare the quotes!
Pain is pain, pain is not illusion. Suffering is illusion. The body (brain)
has a way of dealing with pain (ask Angelique). But the mind *under threat
of a tormentor* has a way of turning pain into suffering, anguish, anxiety,
which breeds subservience on which the tormentor feeds, which process breeds
tormentors, etc. That dynamic can be understood, the suffering can be
alleviated by seeing the illussiveness of it, the if... then...ness, the
reward/punishment trick. And as that dynamic is understood and realized the
torment will cease... granted... one tormentor at a time, one
're-originating being' at a time.
(written enough about that in previous posts)
So much love,
Wim
PS.
El, you wrote:
>What we really need is for people like Wim to stand beside the person being
>tortured repeat as often as needed (until the point gets across): "There is
no >suffering!"
I understand your post well, El, understand me as well. You will not hear me
say ever: "There is no suffering!" but I will forever say that: "Suffering
is illusion and illusion is suffering." Have written about that plenty a
time now.
We can prevent carnage, by overcoming illusion, fear. It may be one person
at a time.
I know already what you mean, could you find out wh... ... ...?
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