To: K-list
Recieved: 1999/12/10 11:49
Subject: [K-list] Another poll. Samadhi
From: winter mute
On 1999/12/10 11:49, winter mute posted thus to the K-list:
Hi Mr. Weil !
On Thu, 09 Dec 1999 17:26:22 Robert Weil wrote:
El wrote:
>>People who have experienced the mystical and sublime are not necessarily
>>wiser or better equipped to appreciate life than others whose spiritual
>>understanding arises from more ordinary things.
Has anybody contended that openly on this list
?
El:
>>No matter how profound,
>>spiritual awakening doesn't permanently >>eradicate our personalities/egos.
No, the awakening itself does not, but the
process that follows will in the end.
El:
>>"You're still you," writes Glenn Morris, "just
>>amplified
No, you are still you, only with less fuss.
El:
>>"Whether a person's
>>actual behavior changes as a result of a deep transformative experience is an
>>open question; obviously, it depends on the individual's prior behavior
No, it depends on the individual's will to
change, the degree that the individual
seeing it is necessary to change and makes
arrangements to do just so.
Rob:
>Seems to
>me that much stuff still needs to be drawn through the fire before one can
>say that one is cleared of egotistical motives.
Yes, it certainly does. :)
El:
>> she yielded to the tendency that Jung had
>>warned against: that of claiming this impersonal force as her own ego
>>creation and, as a result, of falling into the trap of ego inflation and
>>false superiority.
Yes, one would be luckier
claiming oneself as part of
the impersonal force rather than the other
way around.
Rob:
>Perhaps also some loss of boundary between the "thought" and the "thinker"
>leads to the struggle with whether one is the source of the revelation or
>the sharer of universally owned truth.
That could very well be.
It could be confusing.
It is no wonder spiritual traditions
advocate a strong lessening and shrinking of
the ego at the beginning of any student's
path.
This ego shrinking is usually done at the hands
of a senior monk or other type of teacher.
The stories one can read about life in
monasteries are not very romantic.
It's about hard physical and spiritual
work and a constant taming and
shrinking of the ego, i.e. the personal
impulses.
El:
>>Assagioli mentions cases where one aspect of the psyche is far more developed
>>than the rest (I've personally come across some examples of this which I call
>>the "spiritual idiot-savante syndrome"), in which "people may reach a high
>>level with one part of their personality and yet be handicapped by certain
>>infantile fixations or dominated by unconscious conflicts."
Kundalini will also work to resolve these
inner conflicts with time and
make the body/mind let go of
any "infantile fixations or unconscious
conflicts".
This resolution of inner conflicts
are part why the process can be problematic.
Rob:
>I have known ppl who have become fixated on the "killing any living things
>is evil" doctrine to the point where they cannot function in the
>"imperfect" levels. In the need for final clarity of truth they cannot seem
>to accept compassion or forgiveness, even to themselves.
This is a difficult balance to strike:
where does one not harm others and where
does not one harm oneself ?
The danger with a guru is that one gets all
hung up on "what's right or wrong" and
stops considering situations oneself.
Nevertheless, the
question of harm to self vs. non self
when that is perceived is central to many
traditions, and each tradition
does give hints to
how practitioners solve or have solved
such problems in the past.
El:
>>Glenn Morris challenges the prevailing belief that "Kundalini makes you sweet
>>and peaceful."
Nevertheless, a Kundakini awakening
(and I'm sure you know this)
will often, in the instances it happens
outside of any formal spiritual training,
cause such perturbations in the individual's
life, s/he will have problems doing little
more than shout at family and friends
(if need be), much less plan a wholesale
genocide or state assasination.
There will be enough to cope with the
strange events rather than be a real threat.
In the cases that Kundalini awakens in a
spiritual setting, there may be very
good chances the setting itself,
i.e. teachers and fellow students,
are a good safeguard against problems
with too big egos.
There are many ppl with an
active Kundalini that are not sweet and
peaceful, partly because the Kundalini
also can as you say inflate the ego,
and make one prone to rages and
ego blindness,
but I do have problems imagining someone
having real power in the real world
possess an active Kundalini
and at the same time be able
to live a life that
will cause a lot of harm to a great number
of ppl.
>>Neither a fully awakened Kundalini nor enlightenment
>>experiences guarantee a corresponding ennobling of character.
That is what spiritual practice is meant to
result in. Or a decent upbringing.
Culture.
>>Morris
>>stresses that Kundalini "amplifies the natural state" so that "You melt away
>>your social self and you become what you are." This might not always be so
>>wonderful, for whatever was already lurking in the personality is magnified
>>by Kundalini. "If you haven't learned to mellow out and love your fellow
>>human beings, when you come out, you are either a demigod or a demon." (Glenn
>>Morris from a KRN conference audiotape)
When gone far enough, Kundalini will
melt away /all/ parts of the personality.
Who makes the judgement of the
Jivanmukti ?
>>"Once the Kundalini has awakened, it goes in the direction that the
>>personality has developed," Joan Harrigan warns. "If you want political
>>power, you get charisma to get elected. If you want money, it goes toward
>>business acumen.
Providing that the individual can function
and has not lost complete interest
in these activities.
>"The meaning of
>>one's spiritual life is found in the action it breeds," Bradford Keeney has
>>observed. "Having dreams of ecstasy does not make one spiritual. If it
>>fills one with pride and blindness to the needs of others, it's a curse."
>
>Until the mistake is seen, and the heart >learns.
19th century pessimist philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche said:
"Gaze into the abyss and the abyss also
gazes into you".
;))
Best regards,
Amanda.
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