To: K-list
Recieved: 1999/10/07 00:32
Subject: Re: [K-list] Re:The Body, Mind and Soul ... Maureen
From: Maureen Heffernan
On 1999/10/07 00:32, Maureen Heffernan posted thus to the K-list:
Christopher Wynter wrote:
>
> Dear Maureen ...
>
> Maureen said
> >>> I have never noticed positive words about the
> Catholic Church coming from this author.
>
> Christopher said
> "As far as I am concerned,
> I have no problem with the essence of Christianity
> ... but I do have questions concerning the dogma of many of the Christian
> sects as promulgated by many of the clergy ...
> and this is based on the memories of these sacraments
> as recalled by many whom I have worked with."
~~*+M~*
Hello again Chris,
Well, we both have trouble with some of the dogma,that's for sure.Your
feelings are based on the memories of those you work with? See, this is
what I find difficult to sort out,,, an infant recoiling from the words,
original sin. I simply think it is not so. But, I do keep my mind open.
Or are those you work with producing feelings of your memories as an
adult? Difficult to understand this.
> Maureen said
> >>> It appears to be always defaming.
>
> Is it defamatory to ask a question ... I repeat ....
> in the exact words I used in my post.
>
> Christopher said
> "Please don't take my word for this
> but read the sacraments of your childhood church
> and particularly,
> the church of Rome.
>
> Do you own your body, mind and soul?"
> ___
~~*+M~*
I read the words, "> > there is the belief
> > that "the soul is 'owned'" by a church
> > or a mother or father or god mother or god father
~~*+M~*
And to me, IMHO,there are no vows taken by the godmother or godfather
about "owning" a soul,body or mind, but rather a promise to care for
their spiritual welfare if they are placed in that position.
> Maureen said
> >>>Is this passed on in suggestion to others?
>
> If this is the case,
> then is it not also the case
> for the edicts of the clergy, the repetition of dogma
> stated as "being the Word of God" ... particularly
> the rites of the sacraments ...
> where a church states that a child is
> born with "original Sin"
> ___
~~*+M~*
The suggestion I was asking about was not a suggestion or words of a
ritual but rather your possible suggestions or particular wordings to
people who express feelings about their infant Baptisms. I am assuming
they are infants.
Maureen said
> >>> Be that as it may,as I said, I do Baptisms. I do
> have a point of view.
>
> I am not denying you that.
> ___
>
> Maureen said
> >>>I say the words. I bless with Holy water. I
> annoint with Holy Chrism.
>
> Would you like to talk to someone skilled in the
> uses of essential oils ... as to the theraputic effects
> of the oils you know as The Holy Chrism
>
> >From my experience and research,
> the oil of Chrism closes
> the "psychic sensitivity" and, in particular
> the third eye.
> __
~~*+M~*
Very interesting. I have found just the opposite.
> Maureen said
> >>> I place a corner of my stole over the infants
> shoulder as a sign of accepting into the fold. It is an ancient ritual
> where the tribe accepts responsibility for the new soul,
>
> What genetic rememberings are awakened within
> the child with this ritual ...
~~*+M~*
I would imagine a flood of love, a sense of belonging and a
powerfully positive reaffirmation of position in the tribe.
> and for who's benefit is the ritual performed
~~*+M~*
Every person. The parents know that if something happens to them that
their child will be cared for and watched over for their higher good.
And the infant has their upper centers partially opened and more
receptive to higher vibrations.
> and what is the sought after outcome ... particularly
> for the infant child who has, in that moment, free will
> taken from it.
> __
~~*+M~*
Free will is removed from the infant? I would have to see these words
of the Rite to believe this? Please, if you have the time, do send me
(off list) a copy of this wording.
> Maureen said
> >>> and the upper chakras are opened with Holy oil to cement
> the bond and interaction between the Guardian Angel
> and the child,(or adult),
>
> refer my comments above ... and particularly as an infant
> is far more sensitive to the effects of oils than an adult is ...
>
> (read the therapeutic precautions regarding the
> uses of oils and essences)
> __
~~*+M~*
I have.
> Maureen said
> >>> I have yet to say any words that speak of "owning a soul".
> But then again, I am not of the Roman Rite
> (obviously,,I am female) and shall have to dig up the exact
> wording of it.
>
> Within my experience and from my research,
> symbolism and ritual are far more powerful in
> triggering genetic rememberings from the physical
> body than words are.
~~*+M~*
This is true, but I thought this whole thing began as a church or
godmom/dad "owning a soul". And I say again that if these memories
surface from long ago than there would be a sense of belonging to and
accepted by the tribe,producing good feelings.
> I would invite you to do the full series of exercises that I have
> set for my groups .. including the exercises that are currently
> worked through by many on my own discussion group
>
> and then you may understand from the rememberings
> coming from your own body
> and not from what you have read in any book
> or been told by anyone .. including me.
~~*+M~*
I always trust myself. I *see* things when I do a Baptism that aren't
written in any book.
> As I said in a previous post
>
> "What we are dealing with (and the possibility I am putting up for
> consideration) is an unconscious belief and a memory that is being stored
> within the body and has come out within the deep body remembering of the
> people I have been working with ..
> and symbols and emotions confirming this have been found by some people who
> have done an exercise I set on another list.
> __-
>
> Maureen said
> >>> By the way, I am confused. It is the infant who remembers
> these complicated words???
>
> It is the infant who is affected by the ritual, and yes
> an infant has an understanding which has stunned me and
> members of my group as we watch several children born to
> members of this group ... and hear what they tell us.
>
> In the deep remembering work we have done,
> we have found that the adult does
> have the remembering of the Baptism and Christening
> and it surfaces just as clearly as the remembering
> of the actual birthing process, the first breath taken
> and the detailed memories of everything the mother went
> through during the pregnancy ...
>
> and, in many cases, we do recover the memories of previous
> pregnancies in the womb ... of things that happened in the
> life of the mother ..
>
> and so it goes on.
>
> and yes ... a number have remembered feeling
> an uncomfortable, irritating or burning sensation
> from what you turn "the Holy Chrism"
~~*+M~*
Yes, uncomfortable over head,3rd eye, throat or heart or on adults.
That's why I requested my Bishop make the oils with less frankincense
and myrrh. It is also uncomfortable for the baby to put on the little
christening dress and have water poured over its head,(that's why I warm
it.)
> As I said, you are welcome to try the exercises for yourself.
>
> as is anyone else on this list ...
>
> and I respect the opinions of all .. and am aware
> that I may be presenting a perception
> with which many may be unfamiliar ...
~~*+M~*
I enjoy you bringing these things forward as I find I respond by going
deeper into my personal beliefs and also endeavor to do my best to
articulate them.
> but which has come out of the bodies of many people
> withwhom I have worked over the last 10 or so years.
>
> Christopher Wynter
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