1998/03/23 14:01
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #221
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 221
Today's Topics: trying too hard [ "Jason S. White" ]
Re: PRANAYAMA [ MMeyers541 ] Re: Gurus and Disciples/reply [ "Gloria Lee" ]
Grounding - with real ground! [ "Wright, James 7929" ] Re: Past Lives [ Anurag Goel
To: "Kundalini" Subject: trying too hard
Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01BD5694.120AFB20"
Hi list!
I TRY to break the confines of perception. That grandiosity is there, right on the tip of the tongue,
I TRY to reach, to grab, to... I see that I must not TRY.
I TRY not to TRY. All this is trying and tiring.
Frustration.
TRY not - DO! There.
Mmmmmmmm.
Attachment Converted: "C:\SLIP\EUDORA\kunda171" Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:54:10 EST
From: MMeyers541 To: AfperryATnospamaol.com
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: Abhyasa Yoga
Message-ID:
In a message dated 98-03-23 06:32:31 EST, you write:
< I believe that attempts to awaken kundalini can bring that about prematurely,
i.e. a forced awakening, which can have disastrous consequences especially sexually and at the mental level. I suspect that mental hospitals around the
world have many patients who are simply the victims of uncontrolled spiritual power. .
....I should be most interested in your and other list members' views on
this point as I see it as crucial to how we should advise others i.e. the dangers
of premature arousal.
Gentlemen:
As a diagnosed bipolar, think I'll go out on a limb here & jump into this discussion...
I now KNOW that "mental illness" occurs as a result of uncontrolled spiritual power.
About 7 yrs. ago, I "opened to channel." It felt like an electrical jolt to my head, and I saw flashes of red and white light internally & externally. At
the time, I had never heard of the word "kundalini," and even when I read about it several years later in Barbara Hand Clow's book "Liquid Light of
Sex," I disbelieved that "it" (k-awakening) was happening to me--despite experiencing virtually ALL the symptoms she mentioned. In truth, I was in
total denial. (After all, I WAS certified mentally ill.)
Of course, the same year, when I related my MANY synchronistic, telepathic, clairaudient, clairvoyant, clairsentient experiences to a psychiatrist, I was,
how shall we say, hospitalized. (Yes, in addition to experiencing this phenomena, I DID do some very ego-centered, outrageous things, because when
you talk to God, you do feel omnipotent.)
I must say, I met some of the most delightful, insightful, creative, intelligent and interesting people of my life in the hospital--and I'm not
talking about the staff. I told my doctor that mental hospitals were a haven for tortured souls. (It's true, the mentally ill and other individuated types
receive SEVERE opposition for their unique viewpoints; I think psychiatrists and other doctors--who themselves are often treated like God--are VERY
threatened by "abnormal" behavior.)
Never really believing or disbelieving the concept of "channeling," I continued the practice to this day. Now, after joining this k-list and having
SEVERAL after-death communications from my mother who "died" in December, I KNOW that we "Earth People" are spiritual beings in a human body.
I also believe that God/Spirit talks to everybody--some people are just more
tuned in than others. Thus, by getting grounded (advice I read in BHC's book & ignored), k-yoga & other assistance, like this k-list, believe I'm, finally,
starting to work with this energy, which everyone has available to them, in a positive way. One of my voices--and it sounds very loving--has told me I
won't be hospitalized again--and I believe it.
With regard to your comment about "forced" awakening, I wonder how many people have first heard of kundalini & then tried to force its awakening. I would
THINK that, like me, you would notice that something strange was happening, and then try to investigate the source of it, rather than vice-versa. When I
mentioned to several friends and family members, I was on a kundalini list, they were, like, Kundalini"???, what IS she up to NOW???"
Ah, well...by now, I've become rather detached from & amused by people's
comments about me.
...On a...related note, I believe it was Kurt Kreutzer, a few emails ago, who said he had "seen more kundalini basket cases" in the TM movement than in any
other." Kurt, would you pls elaborate on what you meant by basket cases, & why specifically with TM?
Have been hogging the bandwidth, so will sign off for now. You guys are
great!--Michele
P.S. On a synchronistic note, last night I was doing a search on the 'net for "kundalini chakras third eye," or some such, and came upon this website: "The
Value of Psychotic Experience" by Alan Watts-- http://deoxy.org/w_value.htm Think some of you might enjoy.
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:07:43 EST From: MMeyers541
To: keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: PRANAYAMA Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
In a message dated 98-03-22 22:01:55 EST, you write:
< Over time I've come to believe that
the danger is more latent in the individual than in the methods.
From a psychological perspective when you awaken kundalini you activate your unconscious. The same thing occurs in mental illness. If one's psyche
is capable of handling the unconscious content this is fine. If it is not then something very akin to mental illness, and in the extreme, psychoses,
can occur. >>
>From Michele... Kurt, I think you're 100% correct. If I had had an inkling that I was
experiencing k-awakening at the time I was diagnosed mentally ill, I MIGHT have stepped back & said, "Oh, so this is kundalini," and my thoughts wouldn't
have spiraled into "psychosis" (I put the word in quotation marks because, after reading Lee Sanella's book (K: Psychosis or Transcendence) & a few other
books by self-described spiritual psychiatrists, I got some validation for my "hallucinations" (also in quote marks). Appreciate your remarks on the
subject--Michele Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:16:12 PST
From: "Gloria Lee" To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, lobsterATnospamclara.net
Subject: Re: Gurus and Disciples/reply Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain
> >Ed wrote:
> >>>I am incidently involved in a long term project to train my own Guru.
>>It has >>>taken several years to overcome his innate worldliness and
inclination >>to
>>>atheism. However I persevere . . . >>>
>>>Lobster >>>
>>>ED, you get me rolling on the floor laughing with these little asides >>of profundity that you casually toss around. Now what does your Guru
>>Think of the disciple you have given him to work with??? >>Glo Lee
>>PS. Your Crustaceousness is quite charming, ya know?? >
Ed wrote again: >You must be mistaken. An untrained Guru can not be left around
disciples. This >one can not even be left around himself too long without wondering what
purpose >life has . . .
>Guru training is no laughing matter. This person is eminently suitable having no
>interest in spirituality, worldly and enjoying life to the full. The main system
>of training involves me providing books on vedanta, which he gets his wife to
>read on his behalf. Verbal training takes the form of admonishment - I >constantly remind him that my spiritual progress is being kept back by
his >ineptitude and refusal to accept his role.
>I will keep you informed of his progress. >
>Lobster >
>Dearest Crusty One, Getting his own wife to read books on vedanta seems QUITE an
accomplishment to me!!! The fact that he still refuses to feel any responsibilty for your lack of spiritual progress is a sign of profound
wisdom, indeed. The mere fact that you made such a wise choice of guru would also indicate that your own spiritual insight must be highly
developed. The more you avoid this "dangerous guru," the greater your progress seems to become..so it appears to be working rather well,
IMHO...The School Of Paradoxical Ineptitude has been proven over the centuries to be one of the best methods for Spiritual Development yet
discovered, so may I congratulate you on your choice.
Wishing I had a flashy nickname, too. Glo Lee
______________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:22:34 -0700
From: "Wright, James 7929" To: "'Members (all)'"
Subject: Grounding - with real ground! Message-Id:
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD5691.A3A489B0"
Hectic week, chaotic weather, various torments of "normal" appointments
kept and broken - I really needed a break this weekend. Originally I was going to take a den of Tiger Scouts (six & seven year
olds) up a local mountain to collect trash from the trails, get some exercise and have a good time. Someone couldn't make Sunday, so we
rescheduled for Saturday - and got 40-degree moist weather with drizzle and a wind that could cut through two layers of clothing like they
weren't there. Gave up on the hike, reset for next weekend. Then Sunday came, still cool, but lots of sun and little wind in the
afternoon. After I got up from my nap, I found my wife had gone to the nursery store and come home with bulbs, tomatoes and strawberry plants,
with some potting soil. I spent Sunday afternoon getting filthy - and loving it! Filling
flowerpots for a patio/deck garden, building a frame to train the tomatoes to climb, tying them up (loosely, they were still small) and
watering/fertilizing them. Bulbs in the front flowerbeds, more dirt to move around. It's been a long time since I had planted much of anything,
and the smell of tomato plants on my fingers brought back some kid memories of working in my folks' garden. Now I'm looking forward to
vine-ripened tomatoes and strawberries, pretty flowers on the front of the house and a chance to plant some more stuff before the summer gets
here. I bring all this up to share how I enjoyed getting grounded with real
ground - anyone else got their garden started yet? Does it help with kundalini symptoms to have one?
Thanks! james
Attachment Converted: "C:\SLIP\EUDORA\kunda172" Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:02:24 GMT
From: rtrevATnospamredsuspenders.com (Bob Trevithick) To: "Jason S. White"
Cc: "Kundalini" Subject: Re: trying too hard
Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:44:19 +0100, you wrote:
>TRY not - DO! >There.
>Mmmmmmmm.
Yoda,
I agree.. it's easier said than done. Trying to not try.. what a paradox. But when I don't try, nothing happens either. Hmm.
I once sent Skip Atwater a note explaining my frustration, and told
him how hard I was working at relaxing. His reply, of course, was why not just relax instead.
Bob
-- Bob Trevithick
rtrevATnospamredsuspenders.com Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:43:37 EST
From: Afperry To: Tom_I_BradleyATnospamEURO.CCMAIL.compuserve.com
Cc: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Eliade
Message-ID:
Dear Tom, You wrote:
>I think authoress M.Eliade has written books on both Yoga
>and on Shamanism, so she might be a useful source of information.
You are presumably referring to Mircea Eliade [male gender, by the way; he was Romanian :-)] who wrote 'Yoga: Immortality & Freedom' which is an accepted
classic on the subject, whilst not being easy reading. He also wrote 'Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy'. Both are available from Princeton
University Press/Bollingen Series.
Blessings, Alan
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:15:18 +0530 (IST) From: Anurag Goel
To: Angela Mary Broad Cc: Imtgxxx , kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Past Lives Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hi Mary, It depends on the individual whether one can remember the
hypnotism session. I think person who is on the path of kundalini awakening should be able to remember something. When is
hypnotised one's conscious is made to go to sleep and unconscious awakens but one can have both of them awakenend at the same time.
All depends on individual. May be if the hypnotist gives a command during hypnotism to remember the hypnotism session then I
think one should be able to remember. Love,
anurag
On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, Angela Mary Broad wrote:
> Hello xxxtg >
> Thank you for your advice on past life regression and hypnotharapists. I > have one more question, is the person undergoing the regression conscious
> of what is happening while it is happening, or does the hypnotharapist > tape the session? I believe it would be the most fascinating if I were
> conscious of what was being remembered while it was being remembered, at > that moment in the session.
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:45:00 +0530 (IST) From: Anurag Goel
To: Kurt Keutzer Cc: "'Harsha1MTM'" ,
"930359ATnospamaloe.ulima.edu.pe" , "anuragATnospamBhaskara.ee.iisc.ernet.in" ,
"kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com" Subject: RE: PRANAYAMA
Message-Id:
Hi,
I think it's necessary to retain breath as long as you can for kundalini awakening. I found this to when i practise pranayama.
Love,
anurag
> > Thirdly, My point was different however. I believe that kundalini can be
> easily awakened through breath without danger. That is not quite the same > as saying all pranayama practices are not dangerous. It's the difference
> between ``there exists a safe way of awakening kundalini through > pranayama'' vs. ``all pranayama practices are not dangerous''. I don't
> think that holding your breath for 3 minutes is necessary to awaken > kundalini - even when you awaken it through breath. In kumbhaka pranayama
> the point is to mix apana and prana - that is correlated with but not > strictly caused by retention.
> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:32:48 -0600 (CST)
From: hbarrettATnospamix.netcom.com (Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D.) To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: re: personal genius Message-Id:
Forget the genius part, but since k heightened my visual sense I cannot
get enough of color. I drink it in like a woman dying of thirst. Go to art museums all the time and am drawing myself for the first time in
many, many years. So I agree with whoever it was that wrote k may affect productivity, if not quality, though I can see that my drawings
are "better" than they were before. Holly Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 15:56:27 -0600 (CST)
From: hbarrettATnospamix.netcom.com (Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D.) To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: re: Personal Genius Message-Id:
Tried to post this earlier but no go so forget the genius part. Since
K has enhanced my visual sense I find I cannot get enough color into my eyes. I drink it in like I'm dying of thirst. I spend a lot of time
in art museums and am myself drawing for the first time in many years. Though I like my drawings better now, I think whoever made the point
about productivity, rather than quality, being increased with K is correct. I also agree with Gloria Lee about K making ordinary work
better. Hell, it just makes LIFE better. Holly Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:22:29 +0530 (IST)
From: Anurag Goel To: Harsha1MTM
Cc: keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu, 930359ATnospamaloe.ulima.edu.pe, anuragATnospamBhaskara.ee.iisc.ernet.in, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: PRANAYAMA Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hi, I think Pranayama can be of great help towards kundalini awakening
along with meditation. Pranayama helps in controlling mind from diverting here and there.
Love,
anurag
On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, Harsha1MTM wrote:
> In a message dated 98-03-22 20:14:28 EST, keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu writes: >
> < If you read enough and hear enough cautions you'll begin to wonder if it is > safe to breathe at all! However, awakening kundalini through breath can be
> very straightforward and easy. >> >
> Harsha: The cautions are real and are meant for those who wish to practice > breath retention. It is not uncommon for some advanced students to gradually
> develop the capacity to retain the breath after having inhaled (retention can > be increased to 3 minutes or much longer than that). This has a profound
> effect on the brain and the nervous system. Bandha Traya and other such > practices are not meant for most people and indeed may be potentially harmful
> if not done carefully without following certain restrictions. As far as > awakening the Kundalini being straightforward and easy through breath; I would
> say if this is so then it must be equally straightforward and easy through > pure meditation as well. Prana indeed may be controlled purely by mental means
> without resort to heavy duty breathing methods. Ultimately the technique is > much less important than the dedication to practice and the devotion to the
> spiritual life. This is not meant to disagree with Kurt, only to clarify > ......Harsha
> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:36:52 +0100
From: Gloria Greco To: MMeyers541
CC: keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: PRANAYAMA
Message-ID:
MMeyers541 wrote: >
> In a message dated 98-03-22 22:01:55 EST, you write: >
> > >From Michele...
> Kurt, I think you're 100% correct. If I had had an inkling that I was > experiencing k-awakening at the time I was diagnosed mentally ill, I MIGHT
> have stepped back & said, "Oh, so this is kundalini," and my thoughts wouldn't > have spiraled into "psychosis" (I put the word in quotation marks because,
> after reading Lee Sanella's book (K: Psychosis or Transcendence) & a few other > books by self-described spiritual psychiatrists, I got some validation for my
> "hallucinations" (also in quote marks). Appreciate your remarks on the > subject--Michele
GG
Since I don't seem to be getting off, I will jump in here. When I have worked with people who have been in the mental hospital and it is spirit
imbalance rather then simple mental or psychois, and someone who is in balance comes into the picture, it isn't that hard to redirect the
thought flow and energy and simply stop the ongoing mental masturbation going on. This is a terrible place to be for people and hopefully some
enlightened folks will get into the system to retreive those who are simply lost in their own creation.
It is possible that the majority fit into this category, which would be
interesting to know, I do know if I walk into this environment they flock to me like a magnet. And pretty much you can feel the energy go
out of you as this huge need is present, it is an interesting situation that really does need spiritual awareness to enter in order to sift
through it. I suspect that many, half or more could be brought back into the state of awareness that he/she could do the inner adjustment and
learn to work moment to moment to find the way out of the maze. I know that when some simple tools are provided with energy and consciousness
to back it up, that a phone call here and there and some simple ongoing encouragement does more to assist then medicating them to sleep. One
dear friend was told she would spend the rest of her life in the hospital, she is now married for over 20 years and does fine with an
occassional reminder and help shuting down centers when they are over active. If she starts to slide into listening to the voices she always
calls and we simply talk about what is real and what isn't and it is shut down again. Interesting subject that the medical establishment has
very little awareness about. Gloria
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher. Gloria Joy Greco
e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at: http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/
& http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/
Hope you enjoy them! Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:54:25 -0800
From: Kurt Keutzer To: "'Harsha1MTM'" ,
"930359ATnospamaloe.ulima.edu.pe" ,
"anuragATnospamBhaskara.ee.iisc.ernet.in"
Cc: "kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com" Subject: RE: PRANAYAMA
Message-ID:
-----Original Message----- From: Harsha1MTM [SMTP:Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 1998 7:52 PM To: keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu; 930359ATnospamaloe.ulima.edu.pe; anuragATnospamBhaskara.ee.iisc.ernet.in
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: PRANAYAMA
In a message dated 98-03-22 22:01:10 EST, keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu writes:
< KK: Now we have a few issues going. First of all I would be very interested
to learn as to where yogins routinely extended their breath retention capacity beyond 3 minutes - if that is what you meant. Such a feat is rare
in my experience. >>
Harsha: I was doing it routinely in my early 20s for about 7 months out of the year. After Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi (age 23-24) I stopped as I saw no
further point to it at that time. Due to certain reasons, I wished to engage in certain advanced Pranayama practices again for 9 months in my late 30s and
was routinely retaining the breath for 3 or more minutes (at the age of 39 - two and a half years ago). Even my teacher was surprised as it becomes
difficult with advancing age especially if one is living an ordinary and normal life as I am.
KK: Yes, my only point was that it is unusual. Any ``performance tips''? Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:57:43 -0800
From: Kurt Keutzer To: "'Anurag Goel'"
Cc: "'Harsha1MTM'" , "930359ATnospamaloe.ulima.edu.pe"
, "kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com"
Subject: RE: PRANAYAMA
Message-ID:
Hi, I think it's necessary to retain breath as long as you can for
kundalini awakening. I found this to when i practise pranayama.
Love, anurag
KK: The hatha yoga texts speak of suffocating kundalini so that she rises.
This seems to me to be the most difficult way of awakening her - and if the energy is not centered in the central channel when breath is retained then
that can create an energy imbalance which manifests as physical discomfort or mental imbalance. As I said before:
> > Thirdly, My point was different however. I believe that kundalini can be
> easily awakened through breath without danger. That is not quite the same > as saying all pranayama practices are not dangerous. It's the difference
> between ``there exists a safe way of awakening kundalini through > pranayama'' vs. ``all pranayama practices are not dangerous''. I don't
> think that holding your breath for 3 minutes is necessary to awaken > kundalini - even when you awaken it through breath. In kumbhaka pranayama
> the point is to mix apana and prana - that is correlated with but not > strictly caused by retention.
>
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