1997/12/22 11:37
kundalini-l-d Digest V97 #852
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 852
Today's Topics:
RE: 48 hrs $ [ Dieter Dambiec <d.dambiecATnospamstudent.c ]
Re: Deja Vu, a glimpse into the futu [ Nancy <NancyATnospamwtp.net> ]
found quote [ freda <fredaATnospamblarg.net> ]
Re: Proof [ Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.co ]
Re: Urdhava-retas [ Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.co ]
Re: Urdhava-retas [ "Harsh K. Luthar" <hlutharATnospambryant.e ]
RE: 48 hrs $ [ Mike Stickles <msticklesATnospamantalys.co ]
Re: Urdhava-retas [ mraft <at3ATnospamearthlink.net> ]
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 00:04:31 +1100
From: Dieter Dambiec <d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu.au>
To: "'Tom S'" <t_shermanATnospamhotmail.com>,
"kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com"
<kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: RE: 48 hrs $
Message-ID: <01BD0F36.BEDF5580.d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu>
On Sunday, November 23, 1997 2:21 PM, Tom S [SMTP:t_shermanATnospamhotmail.com] wrote:
> I try really hard to live with my emotions in my everyday life,trying to
> be as nice as i can with others and with my self, but i have a hard time
> with the heaven and hell thing.
Religion never hesitates to take full advantage of the sentimental weaknesses
of people and create obstacles by relating all kinds of cock and bull stories
about heaven and hell. These "religious merchants" have non-integral outlook.
They want to divide humanity into different groups.
Everything cometh from Him/Her, and the way is back to Him/Her - to
realise the Divinity beyond time, place and person - because only That is
immutable and all pervasive. Everything else is relative and cannot be a
permanent goal or lasting happiness. The relationship of this process is
that of love and affection, and not of any fear complex regarding going to
heaven or hell.
No one should say, "Oh God, I am a sinner." This is superfluous because
whatever a person has done is known to Him/Her because God as Supreme Soul
is everywhere and knows everything - there is no need to remind Him/Her.
The Supreme Soul is omni-telepathic - the universe is a whole and all
impressions of actions and reactions (whether physical or mental) are
within the Whole - so there is no need to remind God that one may have
been a sinner. Likewise, there is no need to boast that one has
accomplished good deeds. There is no need to proclaim oneself as a sage.
The Supreme entity knows everything and so whether you tell Him/Her true
or false makes no difference.
And, of course, if you always think "I am a sinner, I am a sinner", then
actually you will become a sinner, if you are not a sinner. Because what a
person thinks, s/he becomes like that. This type of thinking is the defect of
religion.
Also, in the social sphere a person may have been bad, but from the Divine
All Pervasiveness there is no good or bad - what comes about is only 'what
you sow is what you reap' - action and reaction. Any reaction of a crude
impact on one's self, eg an injury is simply consequences of
crude/degrading original actions. All the Divine is doing is rectifying
through the law of cause and effect. Thus God has got immense grace for
everybody.
Naturally, though even if one is suffering that is no excuse to leave the
person in that state because 'positive reinforcement' through help to
others is an inspirational thing for that person and for all others.
Through positive reinforcement - service to others - the mind of the
served and server is elevated and becomes more subtle, so as to again move
towards the urge to know the Supreme - the Noumenal cause of all things -
the immutable Truth.
NOW FOR THE IMPORTANT POINT> Thus good (subtler) actions lead to subtler
aspects
of nature, sentiment and rationality and greater 'self knowledge'. Bad
actions (crude attractions) simply lead a person to extroversal,
temporary, instinctual leanings and so the mind will become that way also.
That is what good and bad are. (This is the mental heaven or hell).
So the movement from crude to subtle is a movement to the Noumenal cause -
the Supreme entity of the entire universe - the Universal Soul beyond
relativity - without which the existence of everything would have been in
jeopardy.
That Supreme Self has got a very close relationship with all entities.
That Supreme Noumenal entity is also our inner self (soul = Soul) - It is
not the judge of a court. There is no formality in the relationship. There is
no heaven or hell about it.
The Supreme Noumenal entity maintains the closest (direct) relationship
with all other apparent noumenal entities (phenomenal entities like you and
me), and those
so-called noumenal entities, in turn, maintain a link with each and every
expression of this universe (which means there is also an indirect
relationship with the Noumenal). Everything is connected.
The indirect link of the phenomenal with the Noumenal is that whatever you
are doing is indirectly known to the Noumenal. That is, because of the
omni-telepathic Soul in which the existence of all things find their factual
substantiation and recognition. The link is an indirect link with each
and every entity.
But no one is unimportant. Every individual from an elephant to a blade
of grass is important and has existential value. As the Supreme
Consciousness is the cause of all, He/She maintains a link with each and
every entity. Each and every existence is valuable to the immutable Truth
- there is no partiality or arbitrariness in it. No should develop the
psychology of helplessness or hopelessness or defeatist complex or fear
complex, or hell and heaven complex because the Supreme Noumenal entity is
always with everyone.
No one is ever alone because the Noumenal is always behind the phenomenal
and has both a direct and indirect link to you.
Some people mistakenly believe in a second entity of Satan, but there is no
such entity. If God and Satan both existed, we would have to acknowledge two
Gods. Satan would be a second God. But that cannot be; there is no Satan. The
force of ignorance, the propensity which tricks one into doing an evil or crude
act (ie an act whereby the mind only cares for matter oriented pursuit) is what
creates the feeling of heaviness or hell in the mind.
Even if there were a hell or even if people feel like hell, then God is bound
to stay with those in such a hell. Similarly, those who have reached the zenith
point of existence and attained Infinite Bliss, are bound to have God with them
also. If they think that, having progressed so far, God need not stay with them
any more, they are wrong! He/She stays with all, be they the virtuous or the
sinners. The virtuous He/She must love, the sinners He/She must correct by
persons experiencing the reactions to their actions, ie the law of cause and
effect which is the fundamental reality of the universe. In both cases, good
reactions or bad reactions God is obliged to stay with them.
One cannot pray for help in this regard. Prayer is the act of asking for a
favour with earnestness - it is a religous fantasy. One prays
to God for something which they do not possess.
By prayer or by begging one wants to awaken God's wish so that one may be
bestowed the things s/he lacks in. Does not one's attempt to rouse the wish of
God to fulfill his/her needs, appear to be a reminder of God to give him
something of which God has kept him deprived. God provides what is necessary
at the time - so why prayer for anything.
Prayer or asking for favours from God is only pointing out to the Sole Giver
Its/God's mistakes in distribution of God's favours. It only presumes lack of
impartiality in the Supreme. There is no partiality or bias through the law of
cause and effect.
Praying to God for favours or praying to go to heaven is only to bring to God's
notice the charge of partiality. When prayer leads to such a conclusion, it is
only ignorance to ask
for favours. One who performs actions shall also bear the consequences and
blaming God for it as partiality, is not going to save one from bearing the
consequences.
A hand plunged in fire will surely get burnt. No amount of praying is going to
save it. No amount of belief in heaven will save. For God's granting such a
prayer would mean either removing the burning property of fire or changing the
very composition of hand so that the hand it has no effect from the fire and
does not get burnt. This is not
possible.
In God's creation there is no flaw, only because all things, small or big
follow their own nature. Otherwise there would have been disorder at every
step. Prayers which only serve as a reminder to God for His/Her partiality,
cannot induce God to change the laws of His/Her creation. Any one who hopes to
make God change this because of prayer or hopes to go to heaven, only displays
their utter ignorance.
According to the laws of Nature/Creative Force every action has a reaction
which has to be experienced by the person who performs the action. This law is
unchangeable and praying to change this law or a wish to go to heaven is only
wasting one's time. Prayers cannot change fate and experiencing of reactions is
inevitable.
The salvation/liberation of mind is to merge one's unit mind with the Supreme
Mind - the permanent samadhi has to be accomplished sooner or later and in due
course all entities reach that goal. The fear is loss of ego or I-feeling.
There should be no fear when one gains Everything. The inexpressible beyong
time, place and person, ie beyong all relativity and beyond unit mind is the
Desideratum. Nothing less will do.
Heaven is not a desideratum, as it conceives of a place and anything with place
involves time and personal perception. With these 3 relativities there is
always decay and death. A place of heaven will also be a place of death.
There is no such place of heaven anyway.
To still the mind one must adopt an intuitional practice ie meditation and to
surrender the mind one needs devotion to the Infinite Love, inner heart felt
devotion purifies the mind to allow it the experience of Bliss and by His/Her
Grace the merger Ultimate Attainment.
Hope that answere something
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 06:53:36 +0000
From: Nancy <NancyATnospamwtp.net>
To: kundalini-1 <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: Re: Deja Vu, a glimpse into the future
Message-ID: <349E0E6C.726FATnospamwtp.net>
Dieter Dambiec wrote:
>
> On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Nancy wrote:
>
> > dreams. While I am dreaming, I can tell the difference whether the
> > dreams are mental process or energetic truth.
>
> Some dreams may have psyhic meaning but these are extremely extremely
> rare. Most dreams are ordinary disturbances.
Interesting explanation of dreams. I sometimes have the disjointed,
psychological cleansing dreams which you talked about. But Dieter, I am
now experiencing dreams which move beyond the "sensual" dreams. I
frequently recognize the energy of an event/person which is later
validated. This is happening in both sleeping and waking states.
I am discovering that being aware of a person's energy helps me know a
person. I think this is true intuition...reading energy and viewing it
from different perspectives (past, present or future.)
A funny incident happened to me Saturday in "waking" life that describes
this energy knowledge. I was at a book store reading in a comfy chair by
the magazine section. I became bored with my book so I put it down for a
moment and started people watching. A man sitting by the magazines
caught my attention.
He was moderately physically attractive so at first I thought that was
why I was drawn to him. I don't see auras but have been trying lately to
get an energetic impression of a person. (more aura feeling than aura
sight) Well, this man seemed "red" to me. He was oozing with sexuality.
I observed his behavior. He looked at women, but he certainly wasn't
leering. Outwardly, he seemed to be observing others like I was. But I
kept on getting this impression that he was thinking what it would be
like to sleep with these women.
Since I was picking up all this sexual energy from him, I didn't want to
gawk and give him the wrong signal. But I did continue to glance his
way. After a while, he stood up and went over to his friend who was
actively looking at magazines. The man then picked up a magazine and I
about burst out laughing when I saw the magazine's cover...In bold red
letters...SEX.
I get these same type of insights in my dreams. I receive energetic
impressions. Sometimes the actual events don't transpire as in my dream,
but the energetic truth is there. Once I dreamt I won money from a
Yoplait yogurt lid. The numbers jumped forward in my dream and I awoke
feeling very surprised by it. My mother was visiting and after I got out
of bed, she gave me an express envelope which arrived the day before. In
it was a check for that amount of money.
In the past few months, I have noticed an increase in my intuitive
abilities. I sometimes feel almost psychic. I have found one achille's
heel in this ability...usually when it has to do with issues which I am
emotionally invested, I can't get an accurate read.
I'm thinking that this energy reading ability is a result of becoming
more spiritually awake. I'm sure many others have had this same
experience.
Nancy
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:36:29 -0800
From: freda <fredaATnospamblarg.net>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: found quote
Message-ID: <349E970D.61E3ATnospamblarg.net>
This is a quote I found on the web, as I read it, it brought the Klist
to mind.........
"To approach telepathy, you start with empathy and crank that up
as high as you can. You care about each other. You feel each
others's joy and pain. You make each other laugh, and help each
other cry. You work hard at trusting each other, so that it's
safe to dismantle the fortress around your ego. You forgive each
other anything that stands between you, and try to bring out each
other's best, you work very hard at hosing all the bull-shit out
of your head so that it's clean enough for guests, silencing all
the demons in your subconscious so that it's quiet enough to hear
people thinking at you, and most of all you find ways to make
that work so much fun that you keep on working. You stick
together and love each other, and keep growing."
--Spider Robinson
--
..freda..
BE-IS-AM ...manifesting again...
http://www.blarg.net/~freda/01rg/hm/frhm.htm
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:59:00 +0100
From: Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.com>
To: Gene Kieffer <gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com>
CC: budspaceATnospamhotmail.com, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com,
kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Proof
Message-ID: <349E1DC3.404BATnospamintercomm.com>
For those interested in kundalini research:
Gene Kieffer wrote:
>
> Dear Bud,
>
> Thanks very much for your comments on scientific verification of
> Kundalini. Let's look at the problem this way.
>
> A new hypothesis is announced to the scientific community saying
> that according to the ancient texts on Yoga, it is possible to transform
> an ordinary person into a spiritual genius as well as an ordinary genius.
> The hypothesis says that under certain circumstances, certain ordinary
> individuals can rise to the stature of a genius by practicing certain
> mental and physical disciplines. These disciplines are then described.
>
> The hypothesis also states that certain physical phenomena will also
> occur as the result of the disciplines, etc. Then the phenomena are
> described in some detail, namely Urdhava-retas.
>
> Now for the sake of discussion, let's say that the disciplines are
> performed for a period of time and one or two of the candidates actually
> awakens Kundalini in a spontaneous forceful manner, so that he/she
> manifests all of the symptoms that were described in the hypothesis.
>
> Scientists would be startled, to say the least, and would have to admit
> that yes, you are right, under certain circumstances and disciplines,
> these manifestations did occur. We agree with you. But you also state
> that these candidates who awaken the Energy will rise to the stature of
> a genius, etc., etc. Let's see the genius.
>
> At that point the candidate would have to convince the scientists that
> he/she had indeed become a genius, etc. So now we have fulfilled two
> of the assertions made in the hypothesis: 1. The physical manifestations
> occurred as predicted, and 2. the Subject exhibits unmistakable signs of
> high talent or genius, neither of which could be demonstrated previously.
Gloria:
There may be a problem would arise if the candidate felt she/he was
expected to perform, in which case the mind would hold on and stay in
the way, not allowing the manifestation. This is a problem with seekers
who are disciplined and want to progress, it would be worse if he/she
was expected to produce.
Gene:
>
> What I've said here is an over-simplification, of course, but that is
> the way the research could proceed.
>
> Think of it this way. Billions are spent to find a cure for cancer, or
> to explore outer space. Years are devoted to the quests. Nobody thinks
> this unusual or not worth while. Everyone accepts the costs involved as
> normal. But here we would be attempting to achieve something that would
> make space exploration trivial in comparison, and the cost would be
> insignificant. The benefits and implications of a successful experiment
> as outlined here would be incalcuable.
>
> What we are talking about is nothing less than a demostration to the
> world that it is possible to cultivate genius. This has never been
> dreamed of before, except by the ancient sages of India, etc. Nothing
> else every accomplished by science would be comparable. Imagine the
> world of tomorrow if a new crop of geniuses, both spiritual and mundane,
> were to be harvested year after year after year.
Gloria:
Agreed, the concept is wonderful, I am just not sure that the method
will work. You are almost expecting the person to be enlightened before
it happens to prove that it can be done. This is a very delicate process
that requires absolute detachment and pure intent on the part of the
seeker, the mind really has to be out of the way in order not to have
kundalini illness come about. Yet, we would be setting up the individual
with blocks since he/she would naturally have desire, frustration, and
anxiety from just wanting to be the right subject. Have you thought this
out in terms of how the process flows? A lot of Gopi's problems came
about because of frustrations, fears, and anxiety from the process, and
this would put the person in process in an unnatural setting that could
produce the same effects.
>
> With all best wishes,
> Gene
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher.
Gloria Joy Greco
e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at:
http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/
&
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/
Hope you enjoy them!
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:05:49 +0100
From: Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.com>
To: Gene Kieffer <gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com>
CC: trimbleATnospamhawaii.edu, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Urdhava-retas
Message-ID: <349E1F5B.25FATnospamintercomm.com>
Gloria: More info on Urdhava-retas for those interested...
Gene Kieffer wrote:
>
> Dear Ruth,
>
> You have written an interesting letter but it lacks specifics.
> I have written many, many hundreds of words about Urdhava-retas,
> etc., so I do not know to which words you are referring, specifically.
> I think it would be educational to all concerned if you were to be
> more specific. Please do us the courtesy to itemize your complaints
> for the benefit of all. I would be very happy to respond to each
> and every one.
>
> I used rather challenging language in writing to Dr. Luther because
> he specifically stated that there are many books, etc., on Urdhava-
> retas, and I wished very much to know the names of these books. I
> have a fairly large library on Yoga, and I would like to add to it.
> But if Dr. Luther does not provide the names of the books, authors,
> etc., I would have no way of finding them.
HI Gene: I am reading one right now that goes into it through several
chapters in detail, it is called Guru Swami Muktananda by the same
published by Harper and Row in 1971. I picked it up at the library.
>
> It is obvious that you are knowledgeable about this subject, so
> it would be valuable to me and those with whom I correspond if you
> would be so kind as to add to our knowledge of Urdhava-retas. I
> agree that Swami Muktananda referred to Kundalini in his many
> books and discourses, so if you would list those that specifically
> touch upon this subject, I am sure many of us would be very grateful
> to you.
>
> Thanks so much,
>
> Sincerely,
> Gene Kieffer
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher.
Gloria Joy Greco
e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at:
http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/
&
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/
Hope you enjoy them!
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:05:07 -0500
From: "Harsh K. Luthar" <hlutharATnospambryant.edu>
To: lodpressATnospamintercomm.com
Cc: Gene Kieffer <gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com>, trimbleATnospamhawaii.edu,
heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Urdhava-retas
Message-Id: <349EB9E3.5198ATnospamacad.bryant.edu>
> Gene Kieffer wrote:
> >
> > I used rather challenging language in writing to Dr. Luther because
> > he specifically stated that there are many books, etc., on Urdhava-
> > retas, and I wished very much to know the names of these books.
Dear Gene,
Not too long ago, in a post to the K-list I mentioned several books.
The truth is that almost every book I picked up in my grandfather's
house in India as a young boy talked about the transmutation of the
sexual energy into Ojas. Because I grew up with this concept and
experienced it, it is neither foreign or remote. All the classic texts
on Yoga and Tantra speak of celibacy (Brahmacharya) and its usefulness
on the spiritual path. The very first books I read in India were
lectures given by and essays written by Swami Vivekananda back in the
late 1800s. They contain adequate information on the topic of interest
to you. The Gospel of Ramakrishna Parmahansa would be another place to
look. Books by Swami Dayananda Sarswati, the founder of Arya Samaj, may
be useful. In the early to mid 1900s, the books by Swami Sivananda of
Rishikesh were written. They contain a lot of practical information
about Kundalini and related topics. Various books by Swami Naryanananda
of Rishikesh (although he is not well known) on Kundalini and Celibacy
are authoratative. Books by Aurbindo have been found by some to be
useful. Chinmoy Ghosh, one of Aurbindo's disciples has good books and is
a genuine spiritual personality. I could go on and on. Kurt Keutzer and
Anandajyoti and others could provide you even more names. I had
mentioned many of these books just one or two weeks before and did not
wish to repeat myself. All of this takes time and energy.
You should know Gene that by the age of 21, I had read thousands of
books on Yoga, Tantra, Religion, Spirituality etc. I slowly lost
interest in books as I stayed longer and longer in meditation. After
Recognition of the Self in Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi I lost almost all
interest in reading spiritual books. Most of what I recall in the
scholarly context of Yoga and Tantra is what I read between the ages of
7 and 21-22. Probably others who are better scholars and have kept up
with their readings can give you more information.
Having said all this, I assure you that the concept of Urdhva Retas
pre-dates Gopi Krishna by several thousand years. It is a natural
process experienced by individuals on the spiritual path. There is no
need to associate glamor with a process simply because it has a sanskrit
term to describe it. Beyond all the glamor and the lights, beyond all
the Superconscious states and wonderful visions and celestial music,
beyond Cosmic Consciousness and time and space itself is only the Self.
It is the Self-Existent Reality which is referred to as Sat-Chit-Ananda.
That is the simple but eternal Truth. What is that Truth? It is only who
You Truly Are!
Harsha
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:25:48 -0500
From: Mike Stickles <msticklesATnospamantalys.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: RE: 48 hrs $
Message-ID: <B982B2DC7C0ED111804600805F850AB21D260DATnospamEX-DENVER-U1>
Content-Type: text/plain
Dieter wrote:
> No one should say, "Oh God, I am a sinner." This
> is superfluous because whatever a person has
> done is known to Him/Her because God as
> Supreme Soul is everywhere and knows everything
> - there is no need to remind Him/Her.
I once listened to a sermon on the Fall in which the preacher, referring
to God's call of "Adam, where are you?", said, "When God asks you a
question, it's not a request for information."
Of course God already knows. However, I see confession as highly
important in my own life because it keeps me from hiding from myself.
God as a rule doesn't drag my imperfections out of me and stick them in
front of my face; he gives me an avenue - confession - by which I can
acknowledge them and face up to them with Him beside me as sustainer and
friend.
Now, the specific statement above - "Oh God, I am a sinner" - *would* be
superfluous if it is being said as a way to hide from facing specific
sins. But in saying something like, "Oh God, I've been indulging in
hatred and bitterness against ______", we open ourselves up to God's
guidance so He can teach us how to resolve our hatred and if possible
restore the relationship (or whatever the issue is). Confession is not
for God's information, but for our benefit.
The statements about prayer seem to imply a God (Supreme Noumenal
entity, whatever) who leaves no room for any of us to be involved in His
work. Prayer is one way for the created to become involved in the work
of the creator. In prayer we seek to align ourselves with the plans and
purposes of God. Prayers of supplication - asking God for something
needed - are also a means of reminding myself that my supply is from
God, so I do not become conceited within myself. However, I agree that
prayer as a religious form of Christmas wish list is ludicrous.
The rest of my disagreement seems to be dependent upon the issue of the
"merging" or "permanent samadhi". I am not convinced that this is a
valid description of the "end" we are heading towards; if it were, the
rest of the comments made about prayer, heaven, etc, would probably be
valid. An issue of valid logic leading to different conclusions because
of different premises. The concepts of heaven and hell are not
compatible with a universal permanent samadhi; however, this only
"disproves" the existence of the former to those who accept the latter,
which I do not.
To be blunt, I get tired of hearing many of my beliefs referred to as
"religious cock-and-bull stories" or some other rude equivalent. It
indicates to me a serious lack of understanding of the nature of true
religion. Yes, there are many who capitalize on religious ignorance and
use fear to control others. There are others who capitalize on spiritual
ignorance and set themselves up as gurus to bolster their own egos or
fleece their followers. The counterfeit does not disprove the existence
of the real, on either side. I used to think of the idea of Nirvana or
"permanent samadhi" or whatever as an escapist belief to avoid the
unpleasantries of the reality of hell. I've since learned that it stems
from a different worldview than I possess. I can disagree without
contempt because I know something of the origins of the idea and the
worldview it springs from. I wish I could expect the same consideration
in the other direction.
- Mike
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:34:20 -0800
From: mraft <at3ATnospamearthlink.net>
To: "Harsh K. Luthar" <hlutharATnospambryant.edu>
CC: lodpressATnospamintercomm.com, Gene Kieffer <gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com>,
trimbleATnospamhawaii.edu, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com,
kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Urdhava-retas
Message-ID: <349EB2AC.DDB65313ATnospamearthlink.net>
Harsha said:
> Having said all this, I assure you that the concept of Urdhva Retas
> pre-dates Gopi Krishna by several thousand years. It is a natural
> process experienced by individuals on the spiritual path.
Dear Harsha,
Do you then concur that celibacy is a requirement for this process to occur?
Or can one do both, meditation and sexual practices?
Mike
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