kundalini-l-d Digest                            Volume 96 : Issue 238 

Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: eileenrcATNOSPAMix.netcom.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Genesis, kundalini, mythology]


traveler wrote:
> 
> Do you mean the snake's appearance in
> >mythology predates it's incorporation into kundalini symbolism?  What
> >about the Hermetic caduceus as alchemical achetype (and its precise
> >correlation with ida/pingala representations)?  What about the
> >traditional vedic 1st chakra representations of the snake coiled at the
> >base of the spine?  Do these uses not predate the Genesis myth?
> 
> >What are the earliest references we have (either implied or direct) to
> >kundalini in ancient literature?  Would you acknowledge Patanjali?  And
> >how can we begin to trace these appearances through history (both with
> >and without the serpent semiology)?  Is anybody aware of scholarly work
> >in this area?
> >
> I agree with Ken Wilbur, who lays out a cogent and thorough explanation in
> his major work, A Brief History of Everything: Our "Gods" have changed
> throughout time, and reflect the predominent mode of production of food. As
> hunter/gatherers, where males by necessity brought home most of the food,
> the male god predominated. As horticulture prevailed (something women did as
> well as men), and both sexes were equally capable, a female goddess
> prevailed-- the fertility was emphasized and worshipped. As agriculture came
> into being, (heavy plows, etc, unsuitable for women) the male god came back.
> Now in the information age, the female goddess (who represents more of the
> connective collaborative talents needed here) is returning.
> 
> I have read that the same religions have been in place for ever. We
> celebrate the change of seasons; the harvest, the equinoxes, etc. Similarly
> there are archetypes of birth and death, sexuality, fertility, and the like.
> So the same holidays, the same archetypes, (like a snake) have been around
> forever. It is merely our interpretation of them that changes. I am sure
> snakes have been in people's mythology since the beginning of thought. They
> have been in all the mythologies I have ever seen that emerge from places
> where snakes live.
> 
> Genesis may be a myth that reflects the explanation the male paradigm wanted
> to promote when it establishised priority with the coming of the
> agricultural era. Perhaps earlier, the Garden of Eden was revered as the
> sacred home of the goddess. People worshipped Eden then as they do heaven
> today.The male dominant rulers needed to expel the rest of us from Eden so
> that we would focus on heaven instead.
> 
> The male dominator thinking needed to drive out the female, so it introduced
> the snake, and the concepts of sin and evil related to the snake.
> 
> In some religions, the snake was considered benign. It represented knowledge
> of the unconscious, and was  a "feminine" force.  So there may have been a
> re-writing of the archetype. The snake is now bad. DO not go inside anymore.
> Do not look to yourself for knowledge. Do not value the feminine, or
> intuition. Listen to your local priest instead, HE has a more direct
> connection to Mr. God!
> 
> They needed to expel us from Eden so that we would focus on heaven instead.
> Anyway, the point is that the snake has represented many things thorughout
> history. Like doublespeak, it gets assigned political/religious meaning
> according to the powers that be. So it has been considered both good and evil.
> 
> Beyond this political arena exists our own archetypal response to the snake.
> And this is what I think is important. What do *I* feel about a snake?
> Expereince is a better word than feel. *I* feel the snake, weaving,
> waving...like the universe, both particle and wave, so very elemental, very
> represent of both types of knowledge, integrated, a combination of
> dualities. This I feel is the reason the snake has a powerful effect on ME.
> 
> The snake is like the k, it looks like a spine doesn't it? And the spine is
> the highway up the chakras. These are MY interpretations. The snake waves
> and weaves, almost looks like a fire flickering, doesn't it? The k fire,
> weaving and waving up my highway, (no pun intended), carrying poison if not
> befriended and treated with respect. Continuous, unchanging, moving ahead,
> instinct, power, sexuality, undulation, duality in one, and more.
> 
> The snake, so elemental, so graceful, so powerful, so deadly, so
> mesmerizing.....I can't look at one without being moved, usually frightened,
> but also fascinated. I have painted the snake many times in my k paintings,
> the wave attracts me deeply, as might a dancer gracefully waving to eloquent
> music. I have connected the wave of the snake from earth to heaven and back
> again, have connceted to snakes to form an infinity sign, one that goes on
> and on, the DNA, the dance of the snake, sin and cosin, togehter cancelling
> each other out, or do they acheive oneness, totality itself?
> 
> We are blessed to live in a day when our own personal opinions, feelings,
> interpretations, and responses count. I know some on the list revere the
> *old* doctrines, still they are ALL by nature political *and* sexist. This
> is neither necessarily good nor bad, just so. Just reflections of how we get
> our food, really.
> 
> I am open to appreciating them but I also value my own ability to feel what
> I feel DIRECTLY, without needing anyone else's stamp of approval. Then, in
> true snake fashion, wave and particle, me and you, I join what I know and
> experience with the beauty of what others have said too.
> 
> Best, traveler
> 
> 


What a lovely sensuous snake-weave of words! 
A few years ago in a meditation, I had a peculiar perception just preceding an
altered  state. It was only in retrospect that I recognised what I perceived as
snake-like, which  to me gives this evaluation a greater objective value. I
perceived a vast, powerful, slowly moving mass, rising beside and against my body
with  stately grace. It was enormous, and curved like a great cylinder. "I", the
 ego/body/memory bank unit was like a small particle feeling the movement of this
vast  curved surface, rotating slightly as it rose. It was like a constant but 
sometimes forgetten bedfellow, who, in stirring, carried my awareness to other
realms. The early experience located K in the spine. Now, years later, K was
infinitely  expanded, not to be contained in this or any flesh, and much too
mountainously huge to  leap and frolic like it used to. Now, it doesn't seem a
part of me - rather, I am a part  of it.

And about Ken Wilber - I LOVE this guy! Most of us here are serious students of
the  evolution of consciousness, and as such, would profit greatly from reading
his works -  specifically, UP FROM EDEN and THE ATMAN PROJECT, in which Kundalini
is "put in its  place" in the grand cosmic picture.




Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: lodpressATNOSPAMinetworld.com (Larry Newman)
Subject: Re: AN APPEAL
-
tanmoy bhadra wrote:
> 
> Hi there everyone:
> I just subscribed to the net yesterday and my normally  empty mail box
> was flooded with mail.I wish people would
> 
> 1.Desist from voicing opinions about the kundalini when they have not
> had any real awakening of this massive power or do not have a good
> understanding of the subject.Kundalini is not for the weak minded and
> frivolous discussions just wastes our energies.
> 
> 2.The term Kundalini is a sanskrit word and originated in India( and the
> term was coined by the ancient rishis)  and why does the bible or any other
>  religious text needs to be dragged is beyond me.I wish people stopped
> quoting religious text and treated the subject in the spirit it needs to
> be treated SCIENTIFICALLY.
> 
> 3.I wish people stopped using this as a general talk channel and treated
> it with more respect.
> 
> ----Tanmoy


Tanmoy,
        I can understand your point, however, in part what is happening here is a
coming together of folks in a real world, love, here and now vibration. So while
the communicating back and forth may be frustrating, it is how the energy is
ground into lives so that the fruit will manifest. As we get to know you
hopefully you will find that the love is the carrier and while the conversation
about k is wonderful what is going to make the understand/wisdom real is the soul
to soul exchange as the heart/soul friendships manifest. Just because we aren't
sitting in a room together eye to eye, we are indeed manifesting this through our
ability to transcend the need for it. Group consciousness is as much of the goal
as is communicating about kundalini. It is when the group becomes heart centered
to the point of maintaining communication from love, that k will work for
everyone coming in and many of the physical symptoms will vanish. Why? Because as
a group we are supportint the energy in the higher station, the heart center. And
k will now work in the flow of life taking those who are ready to build that
light body ever higher. Does this make any sense to you? Love to all Gloria
->



Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 
From: Paco 
Subject: more questions 

Okay here is a third question (continuing from post taglined $sex$):

What effect does intense meditation have on the cerebro-spinal fluid?
How, where and how fast is cerebro-spinal fluid reabsorbed into the
body and also regenerated? 
Also, when is the flow of fluid to the brain increased?

        later, Paco



Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 
From: Paco 
Subject: re: re/re/re/responding

Eileen,
        That is f***ing brilliant what you wrote, man... I swear you could print
that page and it's better than 99.99% of every new age book I've ever seen...that
really clarifies some things in my mind...wow.
        About the subtle ego defenses, yeah, that explains some things about how
I've felt and reacted when I really pushed myself; also the way some people are
extra jerk-like at some spiritual group type things. 
-        later,
                Paco



Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 
From: Karen Blackford 
Subject: snakes/kundalini/dna

As a follow-up to Jule's perception of snakes being a symbol of DNA:
-
My k experiences often come at the border of sleep.  As I was waking a few
mornings ago, I perceived my right quadriceps being colored (airbrushed, somehow
from without) a most beautiful shade of gold, lightly tinged with rose.  The only
word that came to mind was "chromatin"--a word I have not used in decades. 
Chromatin is the material forming the strands carrying DNA in the chromosome. 
Its movement is described as coiling, a definition for kundalini.



-
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 
From: Juliet 
Subject: Re: Torah vs. Tarot

CAROLYN MALONEY wrote:
> 
> So what does what you said have to do with the Torah or Tarot..
> Nothing matches..
> 
"Torah vs. Tarot" was meant as a quasi-literary joke, a kind of low-grade pun
about misunderstood meaning--which was the topic of the post.  

Sorry if my meaning was misunderstood...;-)

In cyberspace no one can hear you laugh ;-)

Juliet ;-)


-
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 
From: wrigaATNOSPAMsisna.com (Anne Wright)
Subject: Re: What is a master?

Daniel, Perhaps if you post your letter to the list you will get the replies that
you are looking for. What do you have to lose? It was a fine explanation, and not
that confusing.  I guess the reason why you are not getting specific answers is
because there are none. Each is a master within the realm of the self. I do not
have psychic abilities, and I have only had a single vision that I will realize
within a year. My task on the planet is based upon my life experiences. I am a
product of where we are today. I suspect that there is a new generation of selves
emerging who become masters during their awakening at an earlier age. Those
beings will be guiding the generations to come . Many of us have the task of
helping people unlearn what has been accepted within the scientific, educational,
and religious community for generations. These people are so pig headed that they
will only listen to people within their scope of reality. That is why many of us
actually experienced a different reality during our awakening. Mine was so
bizzare that people just wrote me off as crazy. Of course I am not crazy. The
amazing thing is that I am being directed in a very specific fashion, and the
lessons I learn are essential. I guess you could say that I have a master. If you
are one, I cannot know what that means, but I suspect that you will not be
guiding people outside the realm of their everyday existence. There will be fewer
gurus in the future, not more. Discover your time and place, and let people come
to you. I am posting this on the list so that people will bug you about the
original post. If you don't have it any more, I can post it for you. I wouldn't
do that without your permission. Richard Satin will talk to you. He is an
interesting young person like yourself. Just write to him directly. Enjoy the
enigmas. Anne

-

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 
From: Monique Mooney 
Subject: Childhood and K

I am interested to know if anyone had experienced K at a young age say under 12
or so? And if so when was their initial reaction to it? and what realizations you
had as an adult when you discovered what was happening to you? and what impact
you think it may have had on your life.
Monique



Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 
From: Juliet 
Subject: Re: AN APPEAL

Hi Tanmoy, and welcome to the list...

It's great to have an engineer on board.  I for one would be very interested to
know how your spiritual (yoga?) practice is informed by your engineering
background and vice versa...  

Relative to your other comments:

> 1.Desist from voicing opinions about the kundalini when they have not
> had any real awakening of this massive power or do not have a good
> understanding of the subject... (etc.)

This issue has been recently under discussion.  We have been playing with using
the Lee Sannella questionaire as a beginning point for establishing a
criteria--which is obvioulsy a difficult thing to do--or at least a starting
point for a dialogue about this.  Since you feel so strongly, perhaps you'll have
some valuable insight as to how to do this... 

> 2.The term Kundalini is a sanskrit word and originated in India
> (and the
> term was coined by the ancient rishis)  and why does the bible or any > other
> religious text needs to be dragged is beyond me.
-
You stumbled into the middle of a dialogue that was about defining kundalini as a
pan-cultural occurance.  You couldn't have known, but that conversation in
particular was about looking for evidence (both overt and as subtext) of
kundalini-experiences in various ancient religeous texts, ones which, for obvious
reasons, would not have used the sanskrit term "kundalini."  I'm sure if you
think about this you will agree that this is a valuable and valid, even important
conversation.

Perhaps you should lurk for awhile, to contextualize and get a sense of the
dialogues in process...

> I wish people stopped
> quoting religious text and treated the subject in the spirit it needs > to
> be treated SCIENTIFICALLY.

I totally agree with you that it would be great to "treat the subject
SCIENTIFICALLY."  I see this as potentially important work. But this is not an
easy thing to do.  How could we set forth on a project that would significantly
advance the scientific body of knowledge on the subject?  
-
> 3.I wish people stopped using this as a general talk channel and 
> treated
> it with more respect.

Hmmm.

Juliet #;~>


-
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 
From: lodpressATNOSPAMinetworld.com (Larry Newman)
Subject: Re: What is a master?

Anne Wright wrote:
> 
> Daniel, Perhaps if you post your letter to the list you will get the
> replies that you are looking for. What do you have to lose? It was a fine
> explanation, and not that confusing.  I guess the reason why you are not
> getting specific answers is because there are none. Each is a master within
> the realm of the self. I do not have psychic abilities, and I have only had
> a single vision that I will realize within a year. My task on the planet is
> based upon my life experiences. I am a product of where we are today. I
> suspect that there is a new generation of selves emerging who become
> masters during their awakening at an earlier age. Those beings will be
> guiding the generations to come . Many of us have the task of helping
> people unlearn what has been accepted within the scientific, educational,
> and religious community for generations. These people are so pig headed
> that they will only listen to people within their scope of reality. That is
> why many of us actually experienced a different reality during our
> awakening. Mine was so bizzare that people just wrote me off as crazy. Of
> course I am not crazy. The amazing thing is that I am being directed in a
> very specific fashion, and the lessons I learn are essential. I guess you
> could say that I have a master. If you are one, I cannot know what that
> means, but I suspect that you will not be guiding people outside the realm
> of their everyday existence. There will be fewer gurus in the future, not
> more. Discover your time and place, and let people come to you. I am
> posting this on the list so that people will bug you about the original
> post. If you don't have it any more, I can post it for you. I wouldn't do
> that without your permission. Richard Satin will talk to you. He is an
> interesting young person like yourself. Just write to him directly. Enjoy
> the enigmas. Anne

Daniel and Ann,
        The reason he hasn't got answers to that question is because self mastery
regards really mastering all of the aspects of the process. One must die to the
self while becoming absorbed into the wholeness of spirit. This is a process that
continues and the only way to know a master is by his or her fruit. So, rather
than ask the question look for the fruit, then your spirit will guide you to the
knowing that is necessary to recognize one. Gloria



Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 
From: Robert Chalmers 
Subject: Re: AN APPEAL

Tanmoy said:
TM>I just subscribed to the net yesterday and my normally empty mail box  was
flooded with mail. I wish people would;

TM>1.Desist from voicing opinions about the kundalini when they have not  had any
real awakening of this massive power or do not have a good  understanding of the
subject. Kundalini is not for the weak minded and  frivolous discussions just
wastes our energies.

Agreed.  Certainly there are a lot of messages and we are all going to get tired
just managing them.

TM>2.The term Kundalini is a sanskrit word and originated in India (and the term
was coined by the ancient rishis) and why does the bible or any other religious
text needs to be dragged is beyond me. I wish people stopped quoting religious
text and treated the subject in the spirit it needs to be treated SCIENTIFICALLY.

The actual term used is unimportant.  Kundalini is simply a familiar name, made
familiar in the West principally by Gopi Krishna. It is also culturally neutral.
 Some people are deeply alienated by the Western religious tradition of the late
20th century. 

Why shouldn't the Bible be dragged in?  First of all, many of us on the list do
not believe that kundalini is effective or safe, in fact we believe it is
downright dangerous without guidance from a higher power. It is the experience of
kundalini, in my case, which revealed the existence of such a higher power to
myself, and for that I am extremely grateful. Many of the people on the list may
not realise that the Bible is stuffed full of references to the kundalini
phenomenon. Some of us choose to connect with the God revealed in the Bible and
accept Jesus as our Living Master rather like others accept Sai Baba! Jesus said
he would baptise with the Holy Ghost and with Fire, another symbol for the
kundalini energy! It is an important part of our own culture. But the choice is
yours...

It is also important because we need to focus on the universal nature of the
phenomenon in various religions before we can get the phenomenon in perspective
and treat it scientifically. Although anyone who does will be a sure-fire Nobel
prize winner.  Anyone out there listening?  Anyone who develops a scientific
undertanding of the phenomenon at work here will definitely be up there with
Einstein and Newton.  It is not to be underestimated.

I believe they will also lay the ground-work for cracking the unified field
theory which Einstein spent the last years of his life chasing, a theory which
would explain the interaction of the nuclear, electro-magnetic and gravitational
forces in the universe. Don't believe me? Let me ask you a question.  Why does
the kundalini energy always flow UP? That's a simple question. Think about it.
Think about it again and again. Has anyone experienced a full kundalini awakening
flat on their back? Why in the Bible is the Holy Spirit always described as
descending out of heaven? Gravity? But what does gravity have to do with
kundalini? 

Ahhh, I don't know... But then, perhaps in two hundred years we'll all say that
the truth was in fact really quite simple...

TM>3.I wish people stopped using this as a general talk channel and treated it
with more respect.

I share your view, but I can't see how it can practically prevail. Now, please
tell us about your experiences. There are not enough testimonies in here...

Robert Chalmers

-

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 
From: lodpressATNOSPAMinetworld.com (Larry Newman)
Subject: Re: Childhood and K

Monique Mooney wrote:
> 
> I am interested to know if anyone had experienced K at a young age say under
> 12 or so? And if so when was their initial reaction to it? and what
> realizations you had as an adult when you discovered what was happening to
> you? and what impact you think it may have had on your life.
> Monique

Monique,
Check out my homepage at http://www.inetworld.com/lodpress/

You can read the article about kundalini awakening, it made for a very unique
experience to say the least, but it prepared me for the work I now do. So, I
would say it was perfect in every regard. Gloria
-


Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 
From: slcofksATNOSPAMfeist.com (Philip St. Romain)
Subject: Response to traveler

>Phil,
>
>I have heard that Hildegard (von...?) may have had the k. Any info to share?
-
She and quite a few others show signs of it.
>
>Also, I have often suspected that St. Francis of Assisi was a carrier, too.
>Do you think so?

A "carrier," traveler?
>
>Also, as for the gnosticism, I was told recently that the Eastern Greek and
>Russian Orthodox churches departed from the Roman one when the Romans
>expunged the gnostic part of the bible and the Orthodox faith didn't want to
>do this.

Pure bosh!  The split was over much sillier matters than this.  For the record,
the Roman Church has never expunged anything from the Bible--not even references
to reincarnation. Conspiratorial tripe!
>
>Elaine Pagels wrote a book about the lost gnostic gospels, title esapes me
>now; in it women were much more highly thought of and myticism was a part of
>the whole story. Apparently this occurred starting in the 3rd or 4th
>centuries AD.

There are lots of such books, and they even come with official titles, like the
Gospel according to Thomas.
>
>I don't know too much more. Hoping someone does.

Many people do.  There are whole bookshelves on this kind of stuff in libraries.
 It probably begins, at some point, to move away from the primary concern of the
list, however, and so I am reluctant to go much more into it.
->
>Best, traveler

Likewise.   Phil