kundalini-l-d Digest                            Volume 96 : Issue 236 

Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: traveler 
Subject: Re: St. John of the Cross and Kundalini

Phil, 

I have heard that Hildegard (von...?) may have had the k. Any info to share?

Also, I have often suspected that St. Francis of Assisi was a carrier, too. Do
you think so?

Also, as for the gnosticism, I was told recently that the Eastern Greek and
Russian Orthodox churches departed from the Roman one when the Romans expunged
the gnostic part of the bible and the Orthodox faith didn't want to do this.

Elaine Pagels wrote a book about the lost gnostic gospels, title esapes me now;
in it women were much more highly thought of and myticism was a part of the whole
story. Apparently this occurred starting in the 3rd or 4th centuries AD.

I don't know too much more. Hoping someone does.

Best, traveler



Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: redormanATNOSPAMplix.com (Dorman, Robert )
Subject: Re: The Otherside

Jim Cook wrote:
> 
>    Hi Bob,
> 
>    Thank you for this information. (Very Interesting)
>    Are there any books you could recommend ?
>    Most of my reading has been on Yoga, Zen and Tibetan Buddhism.
> 
>    Thanks again,
>    Jim
> 
> >The small orange or blue lights, from my experience, are spirits. I have
> >encountered them in sacred stone people's lodges (sweat lodges). When it
> >gets really hot in there and everyone is praying hard, these spirits
> >come in.
> >
> >Some "things" that you might see are actually mental projections of your
> >or someone elses mind that are done with such intensity that they become
> >visable.
> >
> >Alot of info on this is available in books.
> >--Bob
> >
> >
Books by Mary Summer Rain (soft cover, "new age") are about her mentor,
No-Eyes, her spiritual training, and her growing awareness of her
mission to help earth-bound spirits cross over into the light; a sort of
real-life ghost buster. Skip the early ones and the health ones if you
are looking specifically for ghost-type info. Phoenix Rising is good on
prophesies. I cant remember the exact title of the one where she really
gets into battling with uncooperative ghosts, but I think the title was
suggestive of the contents.
Also noted your interest in Buddhism. I have been a Buddhist for 27
years.
--Bob


-
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: Juliet 
Subject: Torah vs. Tarot

I'd like to interject here briefly with a request (again) for a slightly more
frequent reference to sources.  I think it's important that we are able to
distinguish when comments are from "channeled" sources, when they are the fruit
of historical research, when they are conclusions drawn from a smattering, when
they are our own inspired authority, etc...
-
In particular, I am curious to know when the frequent references we have had
lately to kabalah are (really) to kabalah as practiced in the Jewish mystical
tradition, or kabalah as (appropriated by?) developed in (much later) western
hermeticism. If the references are in fact to hermetic kabalah, is this as
practiced in the renaisance (Bacon, etc.)?  The mid-twentieth century
(Crowley/Regardie)?  I think Tim wrote:

> >>A K initiation from above has been said to feel like a
> >>lightning bolt coming down into the body.  In kabalah, the lightning > >>bolt
is
> >>a symbol drawn upon the Tree, descending through the sephiroth or 
> >>spheres.

Now, this sounds to me like imagery drawn from the Golden Dawn. But further:

> >>The kabalists have very complete, exact and complicated figures of 
> >>the
> >>creation of the universe (differing somewhat from the bible). 

Whereas this could be from any of several periods.  I don't mean to be
aggressively chalanging here, it is just a bit confusing as written--and I think
it is an important distinction in the current context...

As has been pointed out by Peter, one marvelous thing about holy texts is that
they have the capacity to function as a Rorschak...    
  
> >>Another thing that infers they knew of K is the way the Tree is
> >>split into three pillars.  One of Severity, one of Mercy, and one of
> >>Mildness.  An active force (severity) a passive force (mercy) and a >
>>neutral
> >>force (mildness).

This correlation is quite directly made by Regardie (at least) to
Ida/Pingala/Shushumna (sounds like father/son/holy spirit).  In his book "The
Tree of Life" there is some discussion of the interplay (and distinction) between
yogic practices and magic.

> >>Who are scholars anyway?  A voice
> >>for the masses that tells us what is true and what isn't?  Must we 
> >>follow
> >>their slants like sheep and neglect what they neglect?

No--but we are humans, and as such in the unique position to blend information
drawn from "inspiration" *and* physical toil. To neglect to do so is to waste
half of our resources, IMHO...

One further question:  

> >>The few bits of translation that I have
> >>read (which is more litereal of the original language) refer 
> >>directly to
> >>things on the Tree of Life.  God names, symbols, angels, body parts, > >>etc.
> >>It is my bias then that the bible refers to different parts of the 
> >>Tree of
> >>Life in various passages, making a complementary tool for study of 
> >>the Tree.

Could you provide specific passages for this?  I would love to examine this more
closely.  There is a great resource at:
-
http://www.gospelcom.net/bible/

where you can do word searches in multiple translations(!) instantly...

pax,
Jliet



-
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: Peter Norton 
Subject: Re: St. John of the Cross and Kundalini

Philip St. Romain wrote:
> 
> I liked your reflections on St. John of the Cross and kundalini.  Then
> there's St. Theresa and her seven mansions in the interior life, each of
> which includes the kinds of issues we deal with in the seven major chakras.
> These two mystical giants along with many other Christian mystics
> obviously knew and integrated a full kundalini awakening.

Yes, 'The Interior Castle' is definitely on my reading list, as I desperately try
to rectify the omissions of my scientistic education.  The only consolation for
my apalling ignorance  is my faith that one teensy ray of Divine Light is worth 
mountains of books. 

What a wonderful thing that St Theresa and St John of the Cross knew and inspired
each other!
-
> What is different about them, however, is that this was not the goal or
> center-piece of their spirituality (as it seems to be with the new age).
> In fact, many of the k phenomena were regarded by them as a positive
> nuisance.  Kundalini was, for them, what the Church calls a concomitant
> phenomenon.  

I agree.  But why is there so little overt discussion of it? I wonder sometimes
if it is because of the rift that it would create between the 'K-haves' and
'K-have-nots' in the congregation.  The Church seems concerned to minister to the
'have-nots'  and let the 'haves' fend for themselves, since the Church  is sort
of superfluous for 'haves'.

(Of course, K is not an individual thing that one 'has' as  a possession, since
it is an agency beyond individuality, but it often seems that way from the
perspective of the  'have-nots', leading to envy and persecution etc.)

This attitude seems to have been behind the repression of the Gnostics, at least
judging from Irenaeus' writings and attitude of resentment at being sneered at by
the Gnostics.
-
I would be interested in any references where the Church discusses these
'concomitant phenomena'.  I wonder if any Pope ever experienced K?

It seems even today among Christian Monastics (excepting maybe the Greek
Orthodox?) there is no explicit teaching of K.  Not that I really know, I am just
extrapolating from a book 'Voices of Silence' which describes some brothers in a
California monastery being  committed to asylums after they experience some of
the turbulence  of transformation. 

By the way, the situation seems not much better even in the American Soto Zen
communities.  In my limited involvement with  some of them I never heard any
discussion of Kundalini, though their bookshelves usually had a few texts on the
subject.  The breathing instructions sometimes came close, though.

One person I know of who experienced K during a Zen 
retreat, was even told to leave!  Probably because their 
energy became a little disruptive.  But there was no 
counseling or anything offered, to tell them what 
was happening to them, as if they did not even 
know what it was that was happening to the person.

Can it still be that rare even in religious 
monastic communities?  It is hard to believe.

Gads, I am really rambling, sorry.

> They were onto something far greater than kundalini, for which
> k itself came into play: union with God in Christ.  That their reflections
> on the journey took on a chakra/kundalini flavor should not be surprising
> if that is the metaphysiological structure we all work with.

Yep!  It is maybe a kind of second adolescence, where the body  goes through all
these changes which are only means to  maturity, not ends in themselves.

But, as they say, maturity is a high price to pay for growing up!

cheers


-
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: Juliet 
Subject: Re: St. John of the Cross and Kundalini

traveler wrote:
> 
> Also, I have often suspected that St. Francis of Assisi was a carrier, > too.
> Do you think so?

Just wanted to say that I love this language, with all its (poetic) implications
of a benevolent, mutating, holonomic, divine information virus...

J.



Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: Juliet 
Subject: Re: The Otherside
-
Re: Jim's orange and blue light phenomenon, another take:

> > >The small orange or blue lights, from my experience, are spirits. I > >
>have
> > >encountered them in sacred stone people's lodges (sweat lodges). 
> > >When it
> > >gets really hot in there and everyone is praying hard, these 
> > >spirits
> > >come in.
-
I have noticed something for years, which may shed some, er, "light" on this...

When I get a new influx of energy (commonly, but not exclusively from opening up
and creating physical space via hatha practice), it is usually heralded by twin
streams of purple and yellow.  As the influx progresses, the purple and yellow is
gradually joined by pairs of red/green and blue/orange (which, obviously, are
spectral opposites). When the spectrum is complete there is a kind of "blending"
and I have come to read this as the completion of that "influx."  I can't really
tell how/when/if indigo plays into this.
-
Since I was a kid I have been aware of the red/green twins, which kind of float
around, mainly visible at night.  They look kind of like prana, but less whispy,
more substantive, more physically visable--kind of between astral and physical.
Blue/orange I noticed much later.  

When I was a kid they scared me at night, and my dad (a physicist) told me they
were some kind of phosphene-retinal-eyeball projections.  I'm talking about
teensy-weensy little things, like free-floating pixels.  I used to play around
with it, but have long since stopped.
-
I'm aware that there are a lot of correlations between these spectral color pairs
and fairies/archangles/astral goo-gah, what have you.  But this, as they say in
German, is not my beer.  

Is this the sort of phenom you're taking about?

J.


-
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: eileenrcATNOSPAMix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Re/Re/Re-responding

Juliet wrote:
> 
> Philip St. Romain wrote:
> >
> > Who says the deities of religion are
> > "merely extraneous."  The God I worship is both transcendent and > immanent.
> >
> > The idea of awakening and then trying to integrate kundalini outside 
> of a
> > context of relationship with Higher Power seems terribly naive and > fraught
> > with danger.
> 
> There has been a lot of talk of late about the importance of working
> with kundalini vis a vis "divine will."  In Tibetan Buddhism, however,
> "God" or "Divine Will" does not figure into the final equation--though
> they most certainly do work with what we regard as kundalini.  In
> Buddhism, of course, the ultimate is impersonal, the void.
> 
> There *are* personifications, dieties, anthropomorphized forms used in
> Buddhist visualization practices, etc--but this is, I think, something
> quite different than what is usually intended here when people use the
> term divine will.
> 
> Just thought it was interesting to consider that the Vedic/Christian
> influenced approaches to kundalini (particularly with regard to the
> notion of "divine will") may not be the only "safe" or spiritually valid
> ones.  My guess is that a Mahayana Buddhist would regard this as
> primitive. Taoist practices probably would be interesting to compare as
> well.
> 
> J.


A Zen Master (sorry - I forget who) said that when we are focused in the 
ego, there IS a personal God, and when we are transpersonally focused, 
there is not. Both are truth.
I think it is only at the lower dogma-encrusted levels that Buddhists 
etc. point to followers of theistic religion muttering, "Primitive, 
superstitious," and Christians etc, point to Buddhists and intone, 
"heathen atheists". Those risen higher have a more panoramic and 
inclusive view.
Many spiritual seekers, especially Buddhists, make the mistake of denying 
and suppressing the ego, which ironically tends to reinforce its tight 
boundaries and subtle defenses. As Ken Wilber reminds us, the 
transcendent includes and maintains active that which is 
useful in the trancended. This is the nature of evolution, on every 
level. A visible example is the development of the fetus in utero.
As a "K-vet" of 30 years, I am inclined to agree with those who place no 
particular importance on K in the grander scheme of spiritual 
development. It's early wilder dramatics do tend to be a "nuisance". 
While mature and stable egos are moved to transcend themselves, weak egos 
are tempted into pride which isolates them further from universal 
resources.
I have experienced Kundalini as a carrier for many of the faces worn by 
the Ultimate Formless (archetypes), and cannot, even in theory, see it as 
separate from divine consciousness, both personal and universal. But 
then, nothing is.
E.



Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: Juliet 
Subject: Re: (Warning!) Gnosticism and Exoterica

Bob--Dude! Watch it!!! I visited the site you suggested and was, frankly, alarmed
to find the following material:

Mystic Americanism

     By Grace Morey and Dr. R. S. Clymer

     A favorite biblical theme centers on the hope for a glorious country afar
off, in an age
     to come. The allegory of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, culminating in
Manasseh
     (America) and Ephraim (Christ's Kingdom) as sons of Joseph (Great Britain),
is
     typical of the stories found in this fascinating volume.
     325 pages. $9.95 cloth

Bob, this is "Christian Identity."  It is a usually VERY far-right-wing thing
which is descended from a bizzare cult called "British Israelism." They believe,
among other things, that one of the "lost tribes" were the "Sons of Issac" who
migrated somehow to what is now England and became "Issac's Sons" and finally
(through an incomprhensible bastardization of the science of etymology) "Saxons."
 

Yes, they believe that Anglo-Saxons are secretly the true "chosen people" and
that the U.S. of A. is really the "promised land." This is a fundamentally racist
belief system which, BTW, considers inter-racial marriage to be a sin. It is,
among other things, the spiritual grounding of a large number of members of the
Freemen group who were recently surrounded by the FBI up in Montana.

Is this really what you intended??? Here is another gem copied from the same
site:

The Mystery of Sex; Race Regeneration

     Dr. R. S. Clymer

     Much stress is laid on sex education in our schools today, especially on the
effect of
     sexual practices based solely on the physical. In contrast, Dr. Clymer's
work on sexual
-     practices identifies issues that confound humanity when the sexual act is
divorced from
     true love. His concepts on the spirituality of the sexual embrace--the
sacredness of the
     right and healthy exercise of sex within marriage--may touch a responsive
chord in
     many who are disillusioned with the blatant degeneracy of contemporary
attitudes and
     practices. Perhaps it is time for a revised insight into God's greatest gift
to mankind.
-     273 pages
     $20.00 leather, $9.95 cloth

Yipes!!!

Dorman, Robert wrote:
> 
> Juliet wrote:
> >>snip
> 
> > Would love to hear more about evidence of an historical, codified
> > esoteric tradition in Christianity...
> >
> > J.

> A resource for your above-stated desire is
> http://www.webmast.com/bevhall/
> Click on "the School of Soul Science"
> The rest of the site is also informative.
> --Bob
-


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: SYL228ATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: Re: Genesis,Gnosticism ,"K" etc.

Hi: everyone:

I tend to think of the tree of life as the spine, and the snake/snakes---in some
myths and the cadduceus there are 2-- as a symbol of DNA.  Use this idea and
you'd be surprised how much clearer things become.

Another book to read is "The Other Bible" published by Harper and Collins.
 The editor is Willis Barnstone and the paperback is ISBN 0-06-250030. This book
contains all the stuff that was left out of the old and new testaments such as
the Gnostic literature, Essene, Nag Hammadi, book of Enoch, Odes of Solomon etc.

As for reforming the church.  As one with a Christian personality and a very
pagan soul, I don't think they are ready.  I have worked on this for years too,
and frankly gentle persuasion of the type that opens the mind a little is as far
as you can get---especially with the fundamentalist types.
 Probably we need more Aquarian energies before the church begins to change more
than it has.

For anyone who wrote to me recently will be away for a few more days, and will
catch up with you later next week.

I appreciate all of you on this list.  Love the way we help each other and this
is as important---helping souls as any material help we may do in the world.  
-
For me soul /spirit work is the real work.   Set your mind on God's kingdom, and
his justice before anything else, and all the rest will come to you as well. 
matt 6 v 33 (NEB)

We need to fix ourselves inside before we can fix anyone else!

Love Jule, 
I'll miss you all while I"m away.

-

Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: SYL228ATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: Re: British Israelites

Juliet and everyone:

I just couldn't resist this----Does this mean that since I am British born and
now reside in the USA and am now a US citizen I've somehow arrived? 
-
Since I live in the Big Apple is this the New Jerusalem?------

Just a thought------chuckling and  saying  " tata for now "  as they say in the
old country.

Love Jule



-
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: Sandrak 
Subject: Re: Genesis, kabalist, and kundalini

Carolyn,

you should read the book Quantum Self. it has to do about your dream.

Peace out,
Sandy Schmeil
:)



Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: tanmoy bhadra 
Subject: Re: AN APPEAL

Hi there everyone:
I just subscribed to the net yesterday and my normally  empty mail box  was
flooded with mail.I wish people would

1.Desist from voicing opinions about the kundalini when they have not  had any
real awakening of this massive power or do not have a good  understanding of the
subject.Kundalini is not for the weak minded and  frivolous discussions just
wastes our energies.

2.The term Kundalini is a sanskrit word and originated in India( and the  term
was coined by the ancient rishis)  and why does the bible or any other
- religious text needs to be dragged is beyond me.I wish people stopped  quoting
religious text and treated the subject in the spirit it needs to  be treated
SCIENTIFICALLY. 

3.I wish people stopped using this as a general talk channel and treated it with
more respect.

----Tanmoy

                Tanmoy Bhadra
-                Mechanical Engineering
                Texas A&M University
                College Station
                Texas-77843
                OFF- ENPH 431
                Tel- 409-847-9383(O)
                     409-862-9489(H)



-
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: redormanATNOSPAMplix.com (Dorman, Robert )
Subject: Re: (Warning!) Gnosticism and Exoterica

Juliet wrote:
> 
> Bob--Dude! Watch it!!! I visited the site you suggested and was,
> frankly, alarmed to find the following material:[snipped]
> 
-

MY REPLY:
I'm sorry you were offended by the web site I recommended for info on esoteric
Christianity. 

With a pre-conditioned mindset to political correctness, many things, when viewed
superfically, may give cause for alarm, while for others, fit in perfectly with
the scheme of things.

Likewise, for those pre-conditioned to conspiracy theories, even the most
innocuous (in the opinion of others) of actions by a government are a flagrant
trampling of our constitutional rights.

The right will always view the left as wrong, and the left will always view the
right as wrong. Hillbillies distrust flatlanders and vice-versa. Socialists
distrust capitalists and viceversa.

I have read both the books in question, as well as, to the best of my
recollection, all of the others by the same author and/or puplisher. No writer is
without his/her biases--resulting from upbringing, peers' opinions, and the age
in which the book was published. When I read something, or listen to someone
speak, I try to learn something. If some of the thoughts expressed do not fit in
with my world view and belief system and seem unreasonable, I let them go by and
wait for something better to come along. Rarely do I find any book, or any
person, totally without something worthwhile to say.

R.S.Clymer, to be frank, in my opinion, believed that racial mixing, for a number
of reasons, was not a good idea. He also lived in an age where strict,
unquestioning obediance to one's teacher, parent, employer, or other authority
figure, was expected. I do have a problem with some of his ideas, HOWEVER, that
does not negate the valuable information and research that he presents. 

I am not, by any means, promoting his philosophy, nor do I want to get into an
extended debate over his beliefs. That is not the point. If you read something
you don't like, then its probably not right for you, at least at this time. I
merely wanted to share a resource of information on what you call esoteric
christianity. Incidently, I'm a Buddhist, not a Christian, so I have no vested
interest in promoting any form of Christianity. I do enjoy reading about many
philosophies from many cultures--hence my familiarity with this group's web page.
-


Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: Peter Norton 
Subject: Re: Gnosticism and Exoterica

> Would love to hear more about evidence of an historical, codified
> esoteric tradition in Christianity...

Alchemy is one, sort of, I suppose:

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/home.html

Check out the book "The Other Bible" by Barnstone (sp?) has lots
of Gnostic sources, Nag Hammadhi and others. 
eg 'The Hymn of the Pearl'.

There is also "The Nag Hammadhi Library" (sp?) 
a complete source of all the Gnostic texts found in the jar,
except the ones burned as cooking fuel of course.

Of course, Elaine Pagels "The Gnostic Gospels"

all avail in paperback

Also, there is a magazine called Gnosis, 
they carry an ad for a 4 video series 
about Gnostics which is quite good, but 99$.

Onward, pagan heretics!

cheers



Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 
From: Peter Norton 
Subject: Re: Gnosticism and Exoterica

> > Would love to hear more about evidence of an historical, codified
> > esoteric tradition in Christianity...

sorry to burden your mailboxes, I will try to restrain myself after this: check
out Irenaeus's 'Against Heresies' which is an official Church volume of the
Ante-Nicene Church Fathers, one can see a little of the early esoteric practices
described in the negative, but it is revealing, kind of.  No doubt the  New Age
is just reinventing all these old heresies.  (note: Heresy means 'thinking for
yourself'):

http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers/ANF-01/