kundalini-l-d Digest				Volume 96 : Issue 152 

Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: Natha Bhaktyananda 
Subject: Re: Power of intent & Existence of God

Swenson O wrote:
>
> Kaere Natha.
>
> It has been interesting to observe the discussion that has been
> going on between you and some of the other list members... (etc.)

        Dear Omar,

It has been quite a while since you've sent this message (both privately and on
the list), and therefore I don't know if you are still there to receive this
feed-back.
-
Obviously I do not agree with you upon several points, but I definitely do
agree on that: "it has not been proven that any psychic discipline... leads to
any specific spiritual attainment". And I think that this is precisely why we
have to try and discriminate here between the phoney and pathological aspects
of kundalini and the objective phenomena. Further are some samples of this:

In saying that there are "as many truths as there are individuals" you
definitely show yourself not only contaminated by the Western "tolerance"
(read: flabbiness of spirit) but also as sharing a mentality of materialistic
anthropologist; there is only One Truth -- and an Absolute Truth for that! All
the traditions categorically converge into this statement. We may say that
there are "as many *paths* as there are individuals", but this is an entirely
different matter! We may say that various traditions upon this planet have
expressed this One Truth in various ways, which sometimes *seem* to contradict
each other and create confusion. But to deny the existence of an Absolute
(which by its very definition is one), which is the cornerstone of any
spiritual aspiration, means to approach spirituality and kundalini from a
subtly materialistic position, and that is definitely wrong (and dangerous!).
No wonder that many of the people from this list experience negative, sad or
terrible phenomena related with kundalini, when they openly express a sceptical
or atheistic standpoint concerning this crucial matter! They ignore that in the
tradition Kundalini is regarded as a *goddess*, which has to be worshipped,
beseeched and mastered, if one were to reach the final goal without trouble...
To be interested in kundalini only out of an odd curiosity, can be after my
opinion, not only useless but also dangerous. What aspiration could a human
being nurture, if there wouldn't exist something unique, eternal, infinite, and
common to all, to strive after? What would be the purpose of any spiritual
practice (or of life itself) if eventually everyone would discover that there
are "as many truths as there are individuals" -- and practically reach a cosmic
projection of "mind your own bussiness"? Consciousness is One.

You write further that many of the people here have experienced "what could be
termed kundalini" (and therefore have a *practical* knowledge of the matter
rather than my theoretical one). That is precisely where the problem resides:
if we do not distinguish between the pathological or phoney/insignificant
manifestations of kundalini, and the spiritual/constructive ones, we risk to
mix them up. And that would be tragic, since as you write it many people are
gathered here to gain benefit and then put into practice advice given within
the group. There is some "advice" I've read around that I would be really sorry
to hear that somebody has taken seriously...

Do not try to delude yourself with the cliche of "different cultures and
backgrounds"; electricity works the same in India as in the West, and surgery
or anatomy of man is the same wether you are Buddhist or Christian. If there is
a *science* of kundalini, it should be approached scientifically and
objectively, and not as "everyone has his own truth". I think it would be
pretty difficult to build refrigerators (for instance :-) if you would
interpred thermodynamics in this manner... Albert Einstein has once said:
"Science without religion is blind; religion without science is lame." That is
precisely why usually one cannot rely only on some extraordinary experience one
has had. An ancient saint used to say: "Mysticism (i.e. a chaotical openning
towards the unknown, as many New Age "experts" advise) without theology (i.e. a
clear science, which helps one to preserve the common sense) is the religion of
the demons". Many should meditate carefully upon this dictum...

I do not know why everybody tries to take this old beaten path of: "it will
remain an absolute truth relative to you", "it is understandable that you
defend your faith", "according to your lineage", etc. In all the mail that I
have posted on this list I have never used statements such as: "my teaching
says", "I have experienced it thus", "my teacher said", etc. As a matter of
fact I have never taken advantage of my personal experience in the field,
especially to avoid this kind of discussion. Instead I have largely quoted from
traditional sources and masters, whose oppinion is much above mine. And yet,
people keep on hammering upon this topic, undoubtly to put me back in my drawer
with the notorious formula "you have your own truth, I have mine, goodbye". I
don't think that is mature, nor constructive.

Finally, you state that miracles do not prove the truth of the other statements
of the people who made them (although in the case of Jesus they were made
*specifically* with the purpose of backing his other statements!). I am ready
to agree with you, although people who perform true miracles definitely show a
better knowledge of the secret laws of the Nature, and as such deserve to be
listened with lots of respect. But there is also another factor which may be
taken into account: "any tree is known by its fruits". Therefore, if somebody
for example makes phantasmagoric statements concerning kundalini while his/her
life is a failure (or at least full of unhappiness), there are serious reasons
to deem that he/she is talking a lot of bull and would do better to practise
humbleness and modesty, and learn from some who know how to reach true
happiness and wisdom.
With blessings,

-- 
Natha Bhaktyananda 
Købmagergade 28, 2., 1150 K
Denmark
Tf.: (45) 33930858, Fax: (45) 33930668



-
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 
From: Paco 
Subject: This mailing list

Just want to say, that this here mailing list is
really very interesting...kinda makes me feel good
when I check my email...although initially I was
going to unsubscribe after the first day because it
seemed like some kind of Spam war filibuster with
40-50 posts a day, basically from 3 or 4 people.
Now that I've been on here for about a month, I see
how wrong I was. *smile*. Maybe it would be cool if
people could consolidate their posts into one giant
post and add a header that mentioned all the threads.
Just a thought, might save me a few minutes and make
everything easier to sort through. 
	Don't get me wrong though, it's all cool, y'know?
I really like this newsgroup alot, for even more reasons
than the name...you all seem pretty cool.
-	OK, check it out: I saw this show on TV, and there
was footage of a giant Cobra in India, it was matte black
with large scales and when it stood up it swayed
slightly, it's long body like a rope standing on end.
It seemed to JUMP forward suddenly with it's whole body, then
rearing back again, it's diamond hard head weaving higher and 
higher as it drew itself up into the air. When it stood up it
was about ten feet tall. That's pretty cool, huh?

		adios,
-		Paco



Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: Natha Bhaktyananda 
Subject: Re: Global answer(s) 

Raymond has written:

The above paragraph, posted last week, has continued to bother me until I now
feel compelled to directly answer it.  I will try to keep this brief. *There is
a lot of truth in the above statement* but the author is not familiar with the
western tradition. (etc.)
- ------------------------------

Although this message is almost two months old, I will still answer it for the
question it raises. To tell you the truth, dear Raymond, I would have been
surprised *not* to have received a post like yours. However, I must sternly
deny many of the things you have written there. It is obvious that this
"Western tradition" about which you speak, which is so "steeped in Secrecy and
Silence" is the notorious Freemasonic organisation, of doubtful reputation. I
can assure you that I have read a lot about this matter, and that I am familiar
into detail with the teachings of the Golden Dawn, Ordo Templi Orientis,
Rosicrucians, Kabbalists, Wicca & Co., etc. However, with the exception of the
Tree of Life from Kabala (which did not exist in the original Masonry, being
introduced only later by the speculative Freemasonry by mixing with Jewish
Kabbala) there is no earlier reference to any kundalini in this field. Even the
guys from the Golden Dawn have taken their information concerning kundalini
from the (largely mistaken!) translation by Brodie/Mathers of a Tantric text
from India (on tattva-s and astral projection) and some fluff brought from his
travels by Aleiser Crowley, the black magician of sad reputation. It is a
ridiculous thing to believe that an octupussy-like organisation which contains
Bill Clinton, George Bush, CIA, all the Rotschilds, Rokefellers and other
bankers and money cartels who secretly rule the world, would be a "Western
tradition". Not only that there is a lot of hollow talk here, but we are
actually rather confronted with a SATANIC SECT. Better return to our kundalini
story...

With blessing,
-
-- 
Natha Bhaktyananda 
Købmagergade 28, 2., 1150 K
Denmark
Tf.: (45) 33930858, Fax: (45) 33930668



Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: Mike Parr 
Subject: Re: kundalini & asanas

Lia wrote
> 
> lately i've been finding that my body wants to do spinal twists during my
> meditation as well as the usual undulating spine thing i've gotten for a
> long time now. its not quite as shocking as when i used to automatically go
> into the bridge pose before falling asleep in my bad, or during reiki
> treatments, or while making love.
> 
> 
> lia
>
Hi Lia
I've done some 'postural integration' sessions, which are a kind
of deep tissue massage where moving and talking are
encouraged.  There can be very enegising feeling, plus I also
went into the sponataneous yoga stuff - especially back bends - 
the 'wheel' etc.  I imagine that a lot of these spontaneous poses
are related to relocating the spine.
(btw, I dont think such things are shocking :-)  I guess you
dont really !!

Best wishes - Mike



Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: WorcaATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: physical phenomena

Melody,

You wrote:
>>I'm feeling the "joy and peace of wholeness, completeness, and totally
>>unrestricted love, but where are all these physical phenomena that I'm
>>supposed to be experiencing in kundalini awakening?

My awakening had a lot more to do emotional/spiritual turmoil than the
physical symptoms others have expressed.  After reading some of your posts,
it looks like that's what you are experiencing now.  I know it's not easy,
and in ways it hurts even more than if it were a physical blow.  I
understand.  But you WILL emerge with a whole new set of beliefs, having had
to let go of the old, which will attract much more of what you described
above; and I will even add one - wonder.....

Peace and Wondrousness,  Barb


-
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 
From: Tim Seewald 
Subject: L/R Side Pain: k "pooling" when sleeping?

I had left-side pain so intensely at the beginning of the year that I went
to the doctor and had blood tests and x-rays taken; all negative.  Most of
the time it felt like an egg-sized object was in my upper-left quadrant and
other times the pain seemed closer to my back.  In my case, the pain seemed
more acute in the morning and gradually lessened over the course of the day.
-
I was wondering if perhaps people who typically sleep on their sides
experience side pain as a result of a curved spine where the k meets more
resistance and tends to "pool" on one side?

Is there any positive correlation between those that have side pain and...

...also sleep on their sides?

...experience it more acutely in the morning?
-
...experience it on the same, or opposite side, of the side they favor when 
   sleeping?

...are aware that they are experiencing sleep-time power dreams, OBE's and/or
   other powerful experiences?

Just wondering...
-Tim

-

Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: Patti Taylor 
Subject: Re: L/R Side Pain: k "pooling" when sleeping?

A
>Is there any positive correlation between those that have side pain and...
>
>...also sleep on their sides?
->
>...experience it more acutely in the morning?
>
>...experience it on the same, or opposite side, of the side they favor when 
>   sleeping?
>
>...are aware that they are experiencing sleep-time power dreams, OBE's and/or
>   other powerful experiences?
>
>Just wondering...
>-Tim

Tim, in my case, the k energy we speak of occurs at the strangest times. 

1> Most predictably when I am going to get my "time of month". (K and
hormones both have a lot to do with the pituitary and I have heard this is
very common for women)

2> If I were to even contemplate taking a psychoactive substance (even
talking to someone who did it themselves, and just listening, thinking about
it with respect to them, not  for myself)......(So, I try to avoid this
energy totally. I mean, just talking about it....?!ATNOSPAM#$%)????

3>Other times of the month...for no reason, although like I have said like a
broken record, magnesium made a giant dent in the process---for me. But
historically, or when I feel it beginning, it could be any time of the day.
In fact, when I was undergoing a full blown attack, it finally lumped into a
bump usually in my groin area that I call a k-volcano which might or might
not erupt. 

And when they did come on, it could last for 3 days. I have had it last for
a month. I wind up with "burning skin" that just seems to linger on and on.
Actually, as the day went on, for me, I think it got worse, as the nerves
were overall being more stimulated.

I have had these checked out. Doctors think these bumps are folliculitis
(infected hair follicles) but admit that the timing makes no sense at all.
As usually, no one really knows. 


I think the most interesting part is the discovery of how much the mind can
influence their occurance in me. So sometimes I think they are originiating
in mind, sometimes in body/ Of course, the k is energy, so it doesn't care
where it comes from. Mind=body.  I think it sees us as way more connected
than we do!

Best, Patti



-
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: HB28277ATNOSPAMsprynet.com
Subject: Re: This mailing list

  Paco, cool story.... 
                   
              I often think the same about the filibuster thing.
       I like your everydayness...
                                  
-                              Anna



Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: "Rondi McBoyer" 
Subject: Smith-Barney???

Did anyone else receive numerous apologies from someone at Smith-Barney/? 
Any idea what it is all about?  Something about a spammer getting into our
list and sending stuff....
Rondi



Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: "Rondi McBoyer" 
Subject: Re: Loved Ones Who "Don't Get It"

Dear Melody,
The Kundilini resorce page, http://www.execpc.com/~libra/
has a better explanation than I could give...please check it out, there is
all sorts of wonderful info that I didn't know was there either.
About your lover, One thing that has been made clear to me again, is that
we are all where we are supposed to be.. whether that means physically, or
spiritually, this is where we need to be.  It is really hard to take
sometimes,But you must know, in your gut, where K talks to you, that this
is right.  For right this minute, this is right.
I can feel you are hurting, please feel me sending you light and warmth,
and a big hug.
Love, Rondi

----------
> From: Melody Gavigan 
> To: kundalini-lATNOSPAMexecpc.com
> 
> -> am here for him (though I am curious!).  He will allow, however, that 
> -> something mighty unusual happens when we make love -- I mean to him,
he 
> -> can feel that the K energy goes wild in me!  So I think, hmmm, am I 
> -> some sort of conjugal shaktipat?   
> 
> Hi, please define shaktipat for me.
> My lover left me over the weekend and I think he experienced this
> through me too. He has made it clear that he does not want ME.
> His eyes tell me that he wants what I HAVE spiritually. He has
> been searching all his life for what I HAVE. He thinks he will be
> able to take from me and to find someone else like me that he
> can get the same experience from - maybe someone younger,
> thinner, richer in material things, AND have the K energy
> too! (I'm starting to feel like a piece of sh*t).
> 
> Melody
> 



Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: "Rondi McBoyer" 
Subject: Re: Loved Ones Who "Don't Get It"
-
Conjugal Shaktipat!!!! I love it, and actually it answers so many
questions... Thank you.  You and the list have reminded me that we all are
right where we should be... this is so exiting for me to have folks that
are in the same place though...thought I was pretty much alone, or nuts.
How is your Mom doing?  were you able to do as your grandmother asked?   My
Mom died about a year ago.  Wish she could have heard what I was trying to
tell her.. At the very end, as I was saying good-bye, I told her we would
be together again, and she would know it was me, because I would bring her
a flower.... Don't know what made me say that....yes I do..... She said OK,
and left.    Gotta go, mascara is running.
Rondi

----------
> From: Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D. 
> To: Rondi McBoyer 
> Cc: kundalini-lATNOSPAMexecpc.com
> 
> I agree with the other posts on this so far -- have a similar situation 
> with my adored one.  Whatever he believes or doesn't is just fine with 
> me.  There is no question he is here to ground me, and therefore to 
> free me to go wherever.  I don't think it is my job to figure out why I 
> am here for him (though I am curious!).  He will allow, however, that 
> something mighty unusual happens when we make love -- I mean to him, he 
> can feel that the K energy goes wild in me!  So I think, hmmm, am I 
> some sort of conjugal shaktipat?   
> 
> Holly


-
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: melody.gaviganATNOSPAMnvonline.com (Melody Gavigan)
Subject: Cobra

DL> OK, check it out: I saw this show on TV, and there
  >was footage of a giant Cobra in India, it was matte black
  >with large scales and when it stood up it swayed
  >slightly, it's long body like a rope standing on end.
  >It seemed to JUMP forward suddenly with it's whole body, then
-  >rearing back again, it's diamond hard head weaving higher and
  >higher as it drew itself up into the air. When it stood up it
  >was about ten feet tall. That's pretty cool, huh?

WOW. God has created some truly wonderous creatures! I'd love
to see THIS one.

Melody

 * 1st 2.00 #7384 * The central fact is an overwhelming consciousness of God.
-


Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: melody.gaviganATNOSPAMnvonline.com (Melody Gavigan)
Subject: Re: Power of intent & Existence of God

All,
       Who and what is this Natha person from Denmark? I seem to 
have signed on and missed all his discussions on the list.
-        Natha, how can the process of cultivating Unconditional Love
for God and others be evil???
        If I have misunderstood you, please point it out.
Thanks,
Melody



Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: reikiATNOSPAMbbs.pennet.com
Subject: L/R Side Pain: k "pooling" when sleeping?

Tim,
    somthing else to consider with pain that is experienced at a
particular time in a particular place.  In acupuncture, each meridian is
most active during a two hour time period.  if you had damage, or a
blockage associated with a meridian, you would probably notice it more
during that active time.  Something to think about.

john
reikiATNOSPAMhhs.net



Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: Dan Gahlinger 
Subject: writing?

Well here's one for the weirdness pile, although it was touched on in the
thread about getting words messed up. how about writing?
i mean with a pen, like writing, if you know what I mean, even signing ones
name and so forth?
i just noticed today, after spending a week on a training course, with an
average amount of writing, my writing has gotten rather horrible. i cant
even sign my own name any more, i did that today, had to sign something, and
i looked at it, signed it like i usually do (or at least so I thought), and
"what IS that mess??" eeesh.... and typing, I type 125 wpm, average, no
errors, or at least I used to. these days, uh, maybe 30 wpm if i'm lucky.
extra characters (I try to correct) lousy spelling and grammer.

maybe it's the k adjusting my system recently. well if it is, and any of you
out there have stuff like this, you'll know. of course, if it persists, i'll
see my doctor or something, but for now, I want to hunt down Rod Serling and
have a nice little chat with him.  any ideas, i'm more than
welcome to hear.
Dan.
there are always possibilities...



-
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: Mary Knapp 
Subject: Increased Righteousness

Has anyone else noticed that as a result of K your streak of righteousness
has increased.  Mine has, and I don't like it.

Yvonne Kason reports in her book, A Farther Shore, that people who have had
STE's - spiritually transformative experiences - begin to have stronger
ethical convictions.  This sounds great, and it is, but in actuality it also
can lead to a lack of tolerance.  (Throwing over the money changers tables
out side of the temple type stuff.)   I am still fairly peaceful but don't
like this growing streak of righteousness in me.  I never liked it in others
and now, low and behold, I seem to have it too.  I don't display it much,
but people who used to seem garden variety nuerotic to me now seem downright
unethical and I am often tempted to let them know that they are. Not fun. 

Any thoughts?  Experiences to report?  Anybody think it's just a stage we go
through?  
- 
		Mary,
	The Reluctant Earthling



Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: Dan Gahlinger 
Subject: Re: Tolerance of Others

At 07:20 PM 9/18/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Has anyone else noticed that as a result of K your streak of righteousness
>has increased.  Mine has, and I don't like it.

its not righteousness. its tolerance, perhaps of unethical, or whatever. you
said it below:

>Yvonne Kason reports in her book, A Farther Shore, that people who have had
>STE's - spiritually transformative experiences - begin to have stronger
>ethical convictions.  This sounds great, and it is, but in actuality it also
>can lead to a lack of tolerance.  (Throwing over the money changers tables
>out side of the temple type stuff.)   I am still fairly peaceful but don't
>like this growing streak of righteousness in me.  I never liked it in others
>and now, low and behold, I seem to have it too.  I don't display it much,
>but people who used to seem garden variety nuerotic to me now seem downright
>unethical and I am often tempted to let them know that they are. Not fun. 

bzzt... wrong. you read this incorrectly, which is part of the intolerance
streak you have now. its an increase in morals and humanitarianism. read the
book carefully, it covers this in detail. I'll point out something else below.
-
>Any thoughts?  Experiences to report?  Anybody think it's just a stage we go
>through?

heh. as I was going to say: THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! :)

you hit the nail on the head. its NOT a stage. nope, sorry. I am just
beginning to see how much of what Dr. Kason says is such an UNDERSTATEMENT,
especially in that book.

You've got to remember, that book was written a few years ago, and a lot has
changed. namely, the spiritual evolution has increased exponentially, moving
forward faster and faster as time has gone on. What WERE little things,
small STEs are no longer, they are now major STEPs.

I dont mean small STEs have become major STEPs, I mean, that what we USED to
get was lots of small STEs, nowadays, we dont get those, we get major STEPs
instead.

I've noticed this myself, which is why I was REALLY thankful for your note,
which finally made me realize what the heck was going on. I have nightly
major STEPs (as outlined in the book), and I have daily 2-3 STEs, yes, every
day I have 2-3 STEs then that night I have 1-2 major STEPs. each and every
day. not fun, thats an understatement too.

whats going on? you're transforming, dont worry, be happy.  your
values are changing, your coming up to where I was, your ego will die soon
no doubt. you may even get a premonition that you will die yourself,
remember its your ego, not you, and its trying everything to scare you off.
part of all this mess is your increased ethics and humanitarianism (or
universalism in my case at this time). I posted a bit about this (maybe a
lot) about being afraid of losing tolerance.

what have I learned? you CAN control it, to some extent, but you have to be
VERY aware of it. of course, this comes naturally as time goes on. but you
WILL get tendancies to break peoples faces because of certain unethical acts
(I did!). no its not fun.

is it a phase? perhaps after the ego dies, this fades away, I dont know yet,
i'm not at that point. the only person i can think of on this list who is,
is Barb. so... relax, go with the flow, dont fight it, and be aware.
Dan.
There are always possibilities...



Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 
From: GrandmmaATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: Re: Increased Righteousness

Mary,
I have been more aware and thus sometimes critical of the behaviors of others
too.  People who I used to feel close to I now have difficulty tolorating.  I
am so aware of the duality in action and the illusion in force,  that it is
difficult to not react at times.  I also feel that everytime I interprete
something as negative in content, I am creating resistance within my being
and thus interrupting the universal energy flow within me.  So the way I try
to deal with the increased awareness to the negative aspects is to accept
things as they are, send love instead of judgment, and identify only with
those things that seem to work for me.  Identify rather than compare and
judge.  By not fighting anybody or anything I find myself staying in the
flow.  Needless to say it is not always easy but it does make my journey much
easier.  I feel that I cannot be more aware and intune with the love of
spirit without also being more aware of the negative.  Being aware of the
dual illusion without allowing it to interfer with the natural flow of pure
energy seems to be the answer for me.  I am making progress.  Today when I
feel negative emotions surfacing I know I am not in accord with the pure
energy flow.  I then try to change my negative emotions to a positive mode
 of thinking.  This seem to work some of the time.  Negativity and resistance
always cause me more physical pain.   
-
                                      Love & Light
                                            Jean