From: SYL228ATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: Karol Anne, Debee, and Stampman

Karol Ann:

The book I mentioned in my previous post, I thinkmay be by Mary Renault.
Sorry about that, my copy I leant to someone, so can't check.  anyway you
will find it in the R,s or S,s in paperback in your favorite bookstore.
Forget my head if it were loose.

Debee: 

That is what we should try to do I  think, just be and reachout.  Of course
most of us somewhere on our path to enlightenment do that anyway.  so before,
after, there is only one difference to me. Now I'm more conscious of why I do
what I do.

Stampman:

I didn't mean to imply anything in particular about the lady in question.
 All women have that collective prostitute thing inside them, ready to come
out.  It's an unconscious thing that we carry as people of the earth, because
of our past, regardless of where we are personally.  This was shown to me in
a very graphic way recently.  My 20 year old daughter, who is a very prim and
proper person took it very badly because her roomie was doing the kind of
massage you mentioned your lady does. this was to raise funds for college.  I
mildly suggested that her friend should be careful, particularly as she does
this in people's homes.  they may be expecting something else.  You would
think i'd accused my daughter of being a prostitute .  the word was never
mentioned in fact.She was so upset by the suggestion.  things have calmed
down now, but women are supersensitive to this issue.

Seriously though, in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition from Alice Bailey, the
energy from the second -sex chakra is supposed to eventually move to the
throat chakra.  the throat is concerned with the will in the sense of
expressing yourself correctly in life.  Communication and so on.  So she
really might have a problem here that she is either unaware of, or if she is
aware, she is struggling against the need to change.  Maybe she can't
imagine, earning a living any other way, or whatever.  the salty language
when deep stuff comes up certainly suggests she finds it frightening in some
way.

Since you asked Jule is a nickname, which carries neither masculine nor
feminine connotations.  In spirit we are neither, which is why i like it.
 Actually I am a woman.

Love Jule





Date: Wed, 14 Aug 
From: GgjiATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: kundalini awakening

Jean,
Sounds like you are in a test cycle, can you give us more information about
yourself?  Check out my kundalini awakening on my homepage
http://www.inetworld.com/lodpress/ 
if I can help you with anything I will. Gloria


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 
From: Wendy <>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re Lady with the throat chakra problem


> Does any of that relate to any traditional throat 
>chakra stuff (I know I should go read this material myself, but it is 
>so much easier to twiddle it out of those who have already expended 
>that energy - besides, I get bogged down trying to figure out what is 
>really being said in the literature sometimes).  Thanks, DAN

Yes, I know the feeling of getting 'bogged down' with the literature.

BTW, Dan, what does 'twiddle' mean?

Wendy


Leap and the net will appear.
http://www.tiac.net/users/wenders
___________________

  Don't take advice, take a chance, roll the dice, learn to dance.
	                 - David Wilcox
___________________


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 
From: ijuster <>
Subject: Re: Sexual energies/celibacy

A favorite saying of mine: 

Until you can really say no, you can not really say yes. I think it is good
to say no to giving and reveiving sexual energy with others when it not
appropriate, and ecologically and psychologically the perfect timing.

I think celibacy can be a very beautiful option for some people, just as the
path of the orgasm can be for others.

I have heard good things about the book you mentioned, only scanned it when
a friend read it.

This book may be of interest to you: Passions of Innocence : Tantric
Celibacy and the Mysteries of Eros, by Stuart Sovatsky --(can be orderdered
through Amazon.com bookstore on the web). It is a very Tantric,
yoga-oriented, spirtual discussion of this topic. It is very moving. While I
am definitely not celibate myself, I would recommend this book to anyone.
Even those not considering celibacy,  becuase there is a lot to be said
about loving oneself and feeling energy that is profound.


Good Luck

Love, Patti 


Date: Wed, 14 Aug
From: Mary Knapp <>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re Lady with the throat chakra problem

At 01:46 AM 8/14/96 -0700, Daniel Rusch-Fischer wrote:

>when she will start to intersperse her speech with the sailor-salt I 
>mentioned above. Does any of that relate to any traditional throat 
>chakra stuff (I know I should go read this material myself, but it is 
>so much easier to twiddle it out of those who have already expended 
>that energy - besides, I get bogged down trying to figure out what is 
>really being said in the literature sometimes).  Thanks, DAN
>

What I came up with was purely logic and instinct.  The body manifesting the
person, microcosm/macrocosm stuff.  No literature I can refer you to.  There
is a rather classic work on metaphysical interpretation of disease, a woman
wrote it I believe.  After a bit of reading it becomes obvious.  Someone
will know the book I mean.  

Glad to have given you a laugh.

Mary


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 
From: Wendy <>
Subject: Re: teenagers and K


>Wendy, 
>
>Having worked with teenagers quite a bit I must agree that what so many of
>them go through can be nearly as intense as a K awakening.  Quite aside from
>the body and hormonal changes and all the attendant emotional volitality,
>teenagers have a purity that translates into their being great "Bullshit
>Detectors".  
>
>As society, families and schools are all full of compromises, weaknesses,
>agreed upon selective blindness, and other forms of "bullshit", the
>teenagers are often seen as rebels, antisocial, wayward, delinquent, etc.
>etc.  Some join the herd (the herd cheers), some commit suicide, and some
>dull the pain or try to find a more real world in drugs.  I wish I felt
>confident saying they all discover God and their own spirituality
>eventually.  If I think lifetimes, yes, I could say that confidently.  
>
>Wish they all had something like a K list, or all the marvelous books and
>Web sites that we do. I for one couldn't go through this without them...and
>that means you all.  Thank you.
>
>Mary
>

Yes, Mary.....Anne and I have been discussing this and hope to continue the
thread of it.  You described it so well in the above....re the bs the kids
see thru with a clarity a Guru would be proud of.  Interesting, too, how we
react under their glare, isn't it?   What greater test of our own
Purity, Patience, Unconditional Love....

Nothing can 'deflate' the sensitive, fragile, hard-"earned" Ego of the adult
when confronted so directly by a teenager's clarity and non-bs.   In
that sense, I'm grateful he and I have each other to pass through this time
in both our lives together.  It helps that we are both Pisces, too, I've
often felt.

Now, whatever will I do when my twins get 'here' in about 2-3 more
years?????   Scorpios no less.  (Drew just walked by in search of his
dowsing rod to find his glasses which he's lost! LOL)  I'd better have a
*good* handle on the nonbullshit or hearing it in stereo from them will be a
bit deafening, methinks.  

Another aspect of their purity that you mentioned seems to me to include a
certain detachment.  Perhaps because they are busy forming their own egos at
this time....intensly looking inward as they branch outward,
simultaneously....sigh....only to have to try to rid themselves of Ego later
on.  Wonder if there's some way to change this seemingly 'natural' process?
Or would we even want to try really...perhaps just having the additional
perspective that k brings would be very helpful?  Our reactions, as a
society, to their Purity and non-bullshit no doubt feed into the negative
aspects and tongue lashings, etc. we, as adults, are now hoping to find
balance with in our own adult lives, after k.

Does anyone know of a school where spirituality is discussed along with
'religion'? I'm sure there are alternative schools.  I was referring to
public schools.   When I consider how many parents of the children in my
sons' schools are spiritual people...hmmm...well, you've given me the
impetus I need to start a dialogue with them, too, and see if we can raise
the level of awareness a notch somehow. 

Thanks,

Wendy

Leap and the net will appear.
http://www.tiac.net/users/wenders
___________________

  Don't take advice, take a chance, roll the dice, learn to dance.
	                 - David Wilcox
___________________


Date: Wed, 14 Aug
From: ijuster <>
Subject: Re: Sexual energies/celibacy

Lest I be misterpreted unintentionally: let me rephrase: 

Until we say yes to ourselves, how can we really say yes to others?

And from Osho (not verbatim): There are two doorways to Nirvana. One through
meditation, and one through orgasm. Both lead to the same place.

Love, Patti


 
Date: Wed, 14 Aug
From: jmckinnonATNOSPAMcc.weber.edu
Subject: Re: Another Analogy

On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Frans Storms wrote:

> 
> 
> Before enlightnment chop wood, carry water
> After enlightenment chop wood, carry water
> 
> 

There is another little saying that I think has a related meaning:

"a warrior first begins to understand being a warrior when he(she) is no 
longer concerned with being a warrior."

JohnMcK (mac)


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 
From: rayloganATNOSPAMmistral.co.uk (Ray Logan)
Subject: Overlord comment...

Royale....Thanks for supportive Email...could you introduce me to other MAIL 
LISTS? 

I am quite new on computers\ internet....all I say ON Overlords...TRUTH... 

Would be happy to put more out, of course, intend to put out over 200 
ATNOSPAMitemsATNOSPAM in first ATNOSPAMbookATNOSPAM through Internet... I am searching for correct 
ADVICE\INFO on this possibility...need the ATNOSPAMpenniesATNOSPAM it would generate to 
launch a sensibly sized ATNOSPAMSchool OF CommunicationATNOSPAM....once established we 
would be producing a new ATNOSPAMbookATNOSPAM every six weeks...the Overlords know far 
more about us, the planet, the universe...than WE do! 

Money itself does not interest me greatly, but time moves on and I have a 
lot to do before I !depart this mortal coilATNOSPAM...and cannot do it without 
ATNOSPAMpennies...ATNOSPAMfraid not. 

There is a great deal of confusion in the world...much we could remove! 

Pleas$e write again...  
Ray Logan 


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 
From: jmckinnonATNOSPAMcc.weber.edu
Subject: Chopra

On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Debee L. Thomas wrote:

> > 
> > There is something between these lines. It's the place i live.
> > I must have jumped into a river, and i cannot go back.
> > I have heart tales and stories about the other shore.
> > Sometimes i imagine to see its outlines faintly in the distance.
> > I am uncertain because i don't know.
> > I don't know if my efforts bring me close.
> > I don't know if the stream will carry me near.
> > 
> > I have my moments.
> > Then i chop water. Or carry wood.
> 
> You have caused me to stop and wonder about the space in between.  I find 
> myself thinking that this space consists of our own personal 
> perspective.  Perhaps we think of enlightenment as far more than it truly 
> is?  Perhaps this space is one where we spend some time figuring out that 
> enlightenment is not what we first thought.  We may think we are going to 
> be moved to some heightened position only to find out that we just simply 
> are.  Perhaps we discover that we don't have to be more but rather just 
> be.  No matter what our job, position, title etc. we just ARE in the 
> total scheme of things.  From this space we can reach out and assist 
> others along their path.  Isn't that what enlightenment, true 
> enlightenment is all about?  Every great master/teacher thoughout time 
> has done this.  Become enlightened and helped others along the same path.
> 
> Just a few of my thoughts on the space between
> 
> Blessed Be
> 
> Debee
> 
> 

btw

this is the type of thing Deepak Chopra writes about.

Bless you.

JohnMcK (mac)


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 
From: Wendy <>
Subject: Re: Another Analogy

At 12:05 PM 8/14/96 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Frans Storms wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> Before enlightnment chop wood, carry water
>> After enlightenment chop wood, carry water
>> 
>> 
>
>There is another little saying that I think has a related meaning:
>
>"a warrior first begins to understand being a warrior when he(she) is no 
>longer concerned with being a warrior."
>
>JohnMcK (mac)
>

Words are so often inadequate...... "warrior" is one of those words that,
for me, has too many mixed messages from the past to allow the intent of
your quote to rise above them, clearly and 'cleanly', unfortunately.

One more hill to climb, breaking the language barriers...

I'm trying to think of other words that might be more all encompassing that
embody the underlying intent of the word "warrior".... 

One that doesn't conjure images of 'us' vs 'them', 'me' vs 'myself', war,
battle, fatigue, false armor, super'human' effort, struggle, etc etc.

Anyone?

Wendy

Leap and the net will appear.
http://www.tiac.net/users/wenders
___________________

  Don't take advice, take a chance, roll the dice, learn to dance.
	                 - David Wilcox
___________________


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 
From: John Halonen <>
Subject: Re: Spontaneous mudra?


Not only in mudras, but any position.
It is possible that kundalini has put you in this position.

Like a bent hose, when the water turns on, the hose straightens out
and then proceeds to move on it's own accord, but it is the water inside
moving it.
Or you my grab ahold and intervene.(Guru?)

Just watch the water.  Witness the mudra.
This is meditation.

Peace
John Halonen


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 
From: John Halonen <>
Subject: Re: Ego, Patience, this n that


>From: Wendy                    \ Internet:    (wendersATNOSPAMtiac.net)
>Hi One and All,
>I'd be interested in hearing others' experiences, lessons, thoughts,
excercises, readings about ego and the
>'letting go of' or diminishing of. These are two 'biggies' for me and I'm
spending more time looking at them and
>watching for them and working with/on them.

The ego is everything people tell you about yourself and how you should act.
 How you should be good, but this is bad.  The ego is everything people
project onto you.  Therefore it is not you, and you cannot drop the ego.
The true you is hidden in the moment.  The ego can't exist in the moment, it
thrives off of the future.  Watch you're thoughts ramble,  maybe past hurts
or future wishes and desires come to mind.  The ego wishes and desires and
even is the cause of suffering, because in suffering there then comes a
desire to be rid of the suffering.  Perhaps this or that would be helpful. 
But to live in the moment will rid the mind of these thoughts that the Ego
projects onto you.  and eventually the ego will be gone.  Dropped of it's
own accord, because it could not exist in this new state where there is no
desire or suffering.

>I'm reminded of my first "contact" with Coyote while studying the Medicine
Wheel and being tripped - literally
>and figuratively - throughout the day by my own Coyote medicine.   Over and
Over.  To the point of feeling
>bruised and battered sometimes.  That's also when the incredible sense of
humor began to blossom.  Irony
>seems, also, to be a large part of our awakenings. I think the laughter
dulls the pain of the lessons
>sometimes, as it should.

Everything is a duality, life and death, love and hate, laughter and tears.



>Envisioning such a state and existence of "Being" for us all here on Earth
is enough fuel to keep the engine
>running.  Patience and loss of ego seem to be my biggest lessons unlearned
and constantly in need of
>reminding about. I admit to having doubts I'll ever get 'there'....but try
to remember that the journey is not
>without purpose as well.  Imagine a room full of shaktipatting each other! 


You cannot get there, it is a place and time that holds all time, yet time
does not exist..
To witness your every action in the right now is the key.  To be aware of
NOW.

All of that aside, I try this over and over.  When my mind starts to wander
I just have to say, "I'm walking, now I'm eating, now I'm conversing"  The
other thoughts drop from the mind and I am again aware of NOW.

Peace and Love,
John


Date: Wed, 14 Aug
From: Arlene Benjamin <>
Subject: Beginners

Hello everyone,

Being a newbie to all this, would someone share a good resource for me to read
to gain a better understanding of how to work with the K?
Thanks in advance.

I've been reading Deepak Chopra's work and being a silent witness of oneself
has made a statement for me. A detached observer of one's thoughts, actions,
feelings, emotions, etc. 

And if anyone would point to a good resource about the Medicine Wheel, I'd
appreciate it and thank-you.

Namaste'...Arlene
An outer reflection* of inner thoughts*
Together we co-create Heaven on Earth***


Arlene Benjamin
1136 Market St.
Berwick, Pa.18603
fax-717-752-2573


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 
From: V487ATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: Re: Re Lady with the throat chakra problem

Hi: Mary


>What I came up with was purely logic and instinct.  The body manifesting the
person, microcosm/macrocosm stuff. 

Dos not the spirit manifest the body and the person is it's ego? 

As always,
Von


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 
From: V487ATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: Re: Sexual energies/celibacy

Hi: Patti

<< And from Osho (not verbatim): There are two doorways to Nirvana. One
through
 meditation, and one through orgasm. Both lead to the same place.
 
This very strange and alien to me, but yes it's the same energy.  It's not my
way, but your right.

Love, 
Von


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 
From: V487ATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: Re: Another Analogy

IHi: JohnMcK (mac)

>"a warrior first begins to understand being a warrior when he(she) is no 
longer concerned with being a warrior."<
-----------------------------------------------------

A person first begins to understand life when he(she) is no 
longer is concerned with life."

A person first begins to receive even," mony" when he(she) is no 
longer concerned with money."

A person (warrior) does not even exist.  The ego says" look at me, here I
am!"   As as long as you think it exists, it exists for you.  But look deep
and you will see nothing.  It's real to you because that is what you see, but
you have created it and it takes all the glory and says, look at me, here I
am!

As always,
Von


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 
From: John Halonen <>
Subject: Re: Another Analogy


>
>On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Frans Storms wrote:
>> 
>> Before enlightnment chop wood, carry water
>> After enlightenment chop wood, carry water
>> 
>> 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>JohnMcK (mac) wrote:
>>There is another little saying that I think has a related meaning:
>>
>>"a warrior first begins to understand being a warrior when he(she) is no 
>>longer concerned with being a warrior."
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Wendy wrote:
>>Words are so often inadequate...... "warrior" is one of those words that,
for me, has too many mixed
>>messages from the past to allow the intent of your quote to rise above
them, clearly and 'cleanly',
>>unfortunately.
>>One more hill to climb, breaking the language barriers...

>>I'm trying to think of other words that might be more all encompassing
that embody the underlying intent of
>>the word "warrior".... 

>>One that doesn't conjure images of 'us' vs 'them', 'me' vs 'myself', war,
battle, fatigue, false armor,
>>super'human' effort, struggle, etc etc.

>>Anyone?

Warrior seems to have the correct conveyance.
A warrior seeks to bring peace to his country by fighting off the enemy. 
His true aim is to bring peace.
But only when there is no longer concern of being a warrior, does true peace
come.
Fighting and peace cannot live together.
True peace cannot be forced.

And so the true warrior does no longer think "us" vs "them", 
but just lives.  

Peace,
John Halonen


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 
From: Arlene Benjamin <>
Subject: Warriors and such

Greetings all,

John,
Thanks for reminding me. I have long considered myself to be a Spiritual 
Warrior and any "war" that I have was/is within.
I have a set of Viking Runes which speak of this very issue. It speaks volumes 
to me. 

Wendy,
Thanks so much for the information. I will enjoy the book, I'm sure.

Von,
So much of what you have been writing reminds me of Deepak. Being nonjudgemental
and unattached and letting go of expectations are some very interesting concepts
and some that I am working on absorbing.

Thanks for sharing...
Namaste'...Arlene
When I think of ATLANTIS, I see the color RED*


Arlene Benjamin
1136 Market St.
Berwick, Pa.18603
fax-717-752-2573


Date: Wed, 14 Aug
From: Karol Ann Barnett <>
Subject: Teen Time

I am so thrilled to see these messages about the Trying Teen Times (or is 
it T to the 3rd power?  It sure seems so at times).

With a 14 yr old son who is just now dating and trying to stretch and 
reach and grow in all directions, I so appreciate having the viewpoint 
of others, esp in re to the K energies.  My son has been able to see into 
other dimensions for years, but since this type of "airy-fairy junk" 
isn't taught, discussed or even considered in most curriculum, he doesn't 
talk about it much anymore.  I wish he had a forum like this one (a 
lightbulb just went off that maybe here's something I can do to help him).

And the issue of spirituality in schools is one that is close to my 
heart.  My son is so bored with what he learns because the juice has been 
squeezed out of truth, leaving a dried husk that kids are supposed to be 
excited about learning. Not.

Last night, PBS had a wonderful special where the leading scientists like 
Oliver Sacks, Daniel Dennet, Stephen J Gould and most esp, Rupert 
Sheldrake sat at a round table discussing Consciousness and how it 
changes the world.  They acknowledged that science now has a very bad 
image in most people's minds, but with a dialog like this, I feel that 
the evolution of science is beginning.  There is hope.  And I can see 
this kind of thing helping to bring back the life in our kids' schools.  

Thanks so much for these threads of enlightenment.

Karol Ann 


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 
From: Mary Knapp <>
Subject: Re: Re Lady with the throat chakra problem

At 03:04 PM 8/14/96 -0400, V487ATNOSPAMaol.com wrote:
>Hi: Mary
>
>
>>What I came up with was purely logic and instinct.  The body manifesting the
>person, microcosm/macrocosm stuff. 
>
>Dos not the spirit manifest the body and the person is it's ego? 
>
>As always,
>Von
>
The ego's effect on the body then, shall we say?