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Recieved: 1999/12/29 04:31
Subject: Digest for kundaliniATnospamtopica.com, issue 8
From: Kundalini

-- Topica Digest --
 Re: Hi, Hudson By meetjfATnospamemail.msn.com
   Re: Tantrika Mahasiddhas?
 By aurasphereATnospamhome.com
 Re: Goodbye By aurasphereATnospamhome.com
   unsubscribe
 By shayeseATnospamjuno.com
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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:26:37 -0800 From: "meetjf"
Subject: Re: [K-list] Hi, Hudson
Hello Again, Hudson,
  Sounds like things are working out a little better for you. I also have that Internal heater you speak of but mine seems to work only really
good at night and when I practice H yoga. Otherwise, I tend to get just as cold as ever. It can be a pain to whomever you sleep with, my husband now
sleeps with the window wide open at night by his side of the bed and still sweats! I found out that if I keep my feet out from under the blanket, it
tends to help. In dead winter we have only a sheet and light blanket, he is amazed and says he never knew anyone could be as hot as me...heh heh. Have
you found out yet that you can heat up a small room all by yourself within 20 mins...I mean to around 20 degrees higher then normal. If you try it just
keep the windows and door closed. Nice to have you back on the list, again. Much love, Julie

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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 14:25:56 -0800
From: "Wim Borsboom" Subject: Re: [K-list] Tantrika Mahasiddhas?

Dear Tony, As I already said thanks for your post.
You wrote:
>The concept of Avatar is really not a concept that can >carry over so easily. It is erroneously translated as
>Messiah, God walks on Earth, Mehdi etc. The word >means cross-down and Sai says we are all Avatars, the
>difference being Awareness that manifests in >childhood.
What Sai says is so true, we ARE avatars...
What's missing is that we do not live such... claiming avatar-hood (being prevented or otherwise).
What would a world full of avatars be? A world of avatars is a very normal world.
Some questions remaining:
What are avatars? What is normal?
Avatars do not have questions about who they are and normalcy. :-)
I remember, when I was a 6 year old little boy in corduroy shorts, leather
sandals and mommy-knitted socks and woolen sweater, that I, together with another 40 or so children, was being prepared for the Catholic Holy
Communion. Now, please set aside any apprehensions that you may have about this, just try to see how I as an innocent and naive child underwent that
episode of self discovery. Come to think of it, in retrospect, this was really a prelude to my adolescent madness (was it?) or realization (was
it?)... and later a more mature discovery of messianic (pardon?:-) qualities and later even, at a riper and more informed age... avatarhood (jeez!) :-)
:-):-) Through this early period in my life I came to find out what the 'Second
Coming' of Christ was to mean emotio-physically IN me. I came to discover how the descent of the Holy Spirit into me physically changed my emotional
feelings. In the following account I use of course English terms, but please
understand that in my native language (Dutch) words were used that were much easier for a child to understand. The mix of Latin and Dutch words was much
more intelligible to me as a child than nowadays can be expected. Religion and its terminology was so to say spoonfed and possibly therefore mentally
more accessible, maybe not to all children of my generation but definitely to me and a host of other more sensitive classmates, who I later on found
out to be my friends. Words like soul, spirit, ghost, mind, heart, etc. meant something subtly different in those days than what they mean now,
connotations have shifted. Especially in a language like Dutch or German mostly indiginous indo-german words were used with an additional dose of
Latin expressions that were more intelligable -then- than -now- can be expected or even intuited.
I hope that from the following account a bit of Sai Baba's understanding and meaning of avatar-hood comes through. I think that it also illustrates
what you, Tony, try to express in your post. (Hope I'm not wrong.)
So I was with all these 6 year olds in that catholic church in Delft, Holland, a small provincial, medieval pretty town. 'T was 1952. I am sitting
in one of those uncomfortable darkly stained oaken pews, playing with those stereotypical hinging knee benches, bored to death already, just like my
classmates. Everyone of them fiddling and fretting with something in their own peculiar way. The smelly, brick and woody churches of those days,
confused scents of burning and smokey candle wiks, Eau de Cologne, urine and musty incense. Sacredness? This church was actually not too bad, rather
modern, the stained glass not too boring and there were lots of candles and... wow... electric lights arranged like a halo around the head of the
statue of the virgin Mary..., the Mother of Jesus... I knew as much. At one point an older priest, 'meneer pastoor', walks onto the altar steps and
onto the presbyterium with a large paper scroll under his arm. I've seen this man before, don't know yet if I will like him or not. He is short,
pudgy (is that the word?), gold rimmed glasses, swollen face, gleamy. He looks uncomfortably sweaty. He starts talking to us about something that
will only make sense when he has finally stopped talking. Have you ever run into that? The preamble to a topic gets rather extended, you don't know what
in God's name, somebody is talking about. And... of course when I was six, I did not know the expression, "Now, get to the point already." Anyway, it
gets clear to me from what he explains, that once "...something is over," that I as a kid "...will be clean again, no sin, no guilt, no smudges, good
and lovely in the eyes of Jesus." The word 'confession' comes up a lot, which to me has more to to do with 'fessing up' than with what he is talking
about, "To be pure again, without sin or guilt, so that I may eat the body of Christ..., becoming part of the mystical body of Christ." Christ,
apparently another name for Jesus. I am at times confused as to what he means. To me, up to that point, Jesus meant some strange combination of a
boring painting of a bearded, soft eyed man with a red exposed heart, a finger pointing towards it, and a little, paint chipped, fist sized stone
sculpture of a small baby that fitted just about nicely in a handmade crib that my father had made out of twigs and straw. Jesus also meant Christmas,
Jesus meant candles, songs, silent nights of cosy atmospheres, visits of grandma, aunts and uncles. A mix of happiness and boredom, "Keep your shirt
clean, hands washed, nose wiped..." Jesus also meant sitting tiredly on Grandma's lap, her great whispered consolation, a silver rosary constantly
rotating through her fingers. I adored her, she... always with her white rumpled hanky, her intimate and safe smell of "odeklonye" as we pronounced
the stuff, Eau de Cologne. The priest is getting to the point I think, I start noticing a climax in his
nervousness and vocalization. He unscrolls the roll of... I know that thing, he cannot fool me..., he unrolls the MAP OF THE WORLD but... backwards, the
unprinted rear side facing towards us unruly and restless kids. He points to one side of the blank surface, some rolly wavy folds evident, distracting my
attention. He tries to flatten the chart a bit, pulling it straighter down from the hooked contraption from which the map is suspended. I wonder, is he
going to talk about an undiscovered world maybe, some new part of the universe? In 1952 the map of the world still shows uncharted territory . My
dad pointed that out to me and my brother on the world atlas that we had at home, he also just taught us the meaning of the word 'universe'. The priest
points again to one side of the unprinted surface which is very white, the other half showing a lot of brownly ringed water stains. I remember the
stain-marks on the white-washed walls of the attic on which me and my brother sleep. "Our soul...," he says. "Whatever that is...," I think. "Our
soul, when we are born is like this, the left side of this chart, stained with... " something he calls "...original sin." He points to a large stain
first and then to some smaller sins in the form of smaller stains surrounding and overlapping the large stain. In Dutch of course he uses
words that translate as 'inherited sin', 'deadly sins' and 'daily sins'. Of the last sins, the daily ones, I get a feeling that they have to do with
naughtiness and being a bad boy. I have no inkling about the meaning of the other words, what is 'guilt', what is 'being at fault', 'forgiveness'? I
don't get it. Actually at this point I get the distinct feeling that he is full of shit. It hits me that the church smells like it too, I check my
shoes, did I get some doggy-doo on my shoes...? No luckily not... But some kid in the row in front of me is nervously messing around with his shoes.
Whatever that "pastoor" is talking about..., this is so clear to me..., he has no direct knowledge of what he tries to convey, he does not talk like my
mom, when SHE talks there is substance to it, whatever she says sticks, it is STUFF. In his voice there is a trembling and tenuous conviction of fear.
The raising of his voice is only a mimicky shell of strength and power. Then he starts talking about this Jesus person, the 'Godman'. This is new to me,
I peak my ears. The Son of God, to do with some Trinity, "Father, Son, Holy Ghost", such new words to me. Something gets clearly through to me though.
Now, and this is strangely evident to me, this "pastoor" knows who and what he's talking about, the existance of a REAL person with clarity, rightness,
goodness, this Jesus. "Godman," the pastoor says again. As he is pointing to the right and unblemished side of the hanging chart, he now uses none of the
previous words like sin and guilt and stuff. He glows..., I am not sure if the gold that I see coming from his glasses are my very first observation of
a glorious halo. He talks about someone who exists without fear of being, someone living straight from love and truth. Obviously I am not too
consciously aware at that young age of those characteristics, but the pastoor is now looking straight at me, I am making contact with him, he is
talking to ME!. (Not knowing at that time, that this man, about a year later will have a rather negative influence on my life, and... about 45 years
later a rather kathartic. Will write about that later, no doubt.) The priest is way friendlier now, not smallish and fattish anymore, so close to me, I
like him. I am so focussed now. Are the lights in the church brighter? Are there more candles lit maybe? "We can have this clarity and purity in
ourselves by eating of his body." I am trying to do some mental gymnastics, "Eating of the body of Christ, drinking of Jesus's blood", I don't get this,
but I find this very intriguing, I want to understand this. Did I find the trick...? The more we eat that special bread, the 'Holy Host' that this
priest is referring to, the more we get to be like Christ. I get this, it is simple, this can be done. It is a matter of some special mysterious festive
form of eating bread at this altar, and "you will discover your relationship to this special person, Jesus." I can identity with this, Jesus, this Son of
God... I remember some Christmas carols, the hum and melodies of them vibrating through my current vision of this, MY Jesus. Christmas carols, so
important in our family, the words of which I know by heart, are now falling into place. I know the secret... It is something very intimate and personal,
between me and God's Son, that Jesus, born to us... Emmanuel. Oh come, oh come, Emmanuel..., Veni Emmanuel. There it is more... that Jesus Christ does
exist through us in love, truth, intimacy... I remember seeing my mother praying for my father, her pain answered. I know now what that means, but I
know more... There is no separation between Me and this Son of God. Also... 'somehow and somewhere' there is a Holy Spirit..., Veni Sancte Spiritu...
another song vibrating through my chest. It feels as though there are multicoloured flowers popping up in my chest, tears of happiness coming up
through my throat with this sweet taste of honey. The 'pastoor' shows with his arms, hands and fingers how it all connects, "Trinity, love binds it all
together..." Must be difficult to explain trinity to a bunch of restless 6 year olds. But I am ecstatic, never felt so festive... is this holiness?
I get to find out later that what I underwent was not picked up by many other kids, I am different maybe but then... I am not, I just understood
more, I was spoken to... in person. Holy Communion eventually came to mean 'the lot' to me, the world and more!
"The more you eat Christ," I would ruminate as a young boy," the more you are Christ..." Later I would misschivously joke,"You are what you eat."
Sure, I have gone through periods that would expertly be called depression, some extreme craziness, yes why not, schizophrenia, but that has never been
my diagnosis. I only experience reality... I never doubt that... Later when I found out more about messianic messages and functionality, the
Adams, the Eves, the Vishnus, Shivas, Brahmans, the Milarepas, the Buddhas, the Avalokitesvaras, Achnatons, Krishnas, Prophets, Socrateses and
Christs..., more about myself, I never had difficulty with sayings that expressed our divinity, we are all gods, God, I AM THAT I AM.
SO-HAM May we all find out...
>However there are other concepts that
>describe the same condition; Jivanmukti, or Tantrika >Siddha, Mahasiddha, Mahasakti.

Of course in literature one gets time based, culture based descriptions, understandings, characteristics (Siddhis) and... commentaries and...
critiques. What counts is the personal, subject-experience. The identity of one's
origine "So-ham"
>Tantra is a very secretive sadhana, and is older than >the Vedas, older than Adam and Eve,
Tony, have you read what I wrote about my memory of being Adam in Eden? It
is not the full memory I recounted, but enough to see the history of Kundalini though the lineage of original humankind and some of it's
progeny.
>for it is the >Continuum. Some sadhakas follow a system that involves
>use of the sex organs, Kundalini ojas etc,
Tony, have you read what I wrote in Western terms about urdvareta
(spelling?)
>and this is misunderstood by Westerners and Hindu >Fundamentalists particularly.
>Not by all Hindus, the more enlightened Vedantists >are more understanding of what it is, even if it is
>not their 'bag', so to speak, like myself. One first >has to understand that morality is relative to a
>society and that there is ultimately no bad or good,
This is so true, the process of Kundalini lets one experience this very, very realistically. The a-morality as I termed it
My experience,tantamount to Jesus's 40 days of temptation in the desert. I have written something about that as well, no need to repeat it.
>only that which achieves Moksha. This tantric system
>is called antinomianism, pratilo-man, against the >norm, paravritti-inversion, Mai-thuna or ritualised
>sexual intercourse.
Actually, forget the word 'ritualised'. Utmost lovemaking is the utmost
miracle........
>[x] Bliss is bliss, sexual bliss is fleeting but it is the >Sakti. This is why people are attached to it, it is
>the nearest they get to the ecstasy, of Samadhi.
>It is used by some tantric schools to induce sustained >ecstasy leading to a kind of Savikalpa Samadhi,
>obviously not Nirvikalpa.
Hey, Tony, this is so neat, this kind of induced Savikalpa Samadhi, sexually
induced, leads into Nirvikalpa Samadhi. The real thing, absolutely... period.
It is so fantastic and such a neat surprise. Let's not mythologize the samadhis... they are attainable by being normal,
the simple avatar way.
>They say it is possible for one Tantrika >Siddha,(Mahasiddha/Avatar), to raise, or lift the
>karma of entire humanity. This has never been achieved >by any Avatar or Divine Descent yet!
I realized something that I call the, "In my world... realization." Let me
just say, that in this realization something like what you are referring to above is realized. Even if it goes just one avatar at a time. :-) Avatars
have patience.:-) Also... they have not conditioned into themselves the usual ideas of time and space, avatars are non-conceptual beings. Avatars
play.
> So-Ham by the way is a tantric mantra.
And you are so right again, it came to me spontaneously, the syllables, even the sanskrit characters flashed in my visions. (Even before I knew too much
about that language.)
>(x) Unless one can >take one's mind back before religion and even back
>beyond the Tantric parable of Adam and Eve, back >before right and wrong, one will not understand any of
>this.
Tony, tell me more about your understanding of this, "the Tantric parable of Adam and Eve".
Interesting thing happened on TV last week. Don't know if you know the English tradition of the "Lessons and Carols Service" they do at King's
College in Cambridge (I think). To my knowledge for the first time, they read..., a lady actually, and that is very rare indeed, she read the passage
from Genesis that usually incriminates the woman (Eve) as the instigator of original sin by listening to the intimations of the snake about divine
knowledge and eternal life. This time though, all the negative connotations were edited out from the version as read... This was indeed fantastic...
somebody there knows about the real Kundalini version of the Adam and Eve story ????
We are getting somewhere...
>Not all Tantra is overtly sexual of course. >What is good in one age may be the reverse in another
>age, it is all relative. The big block to >understanding spirituality and liberation is
>unnecessary fundamentalism. West or East.

Thanks, Tony, Love, Wim
>ASATHO MA SATH GAMAYA, From the unreal lead me to the real,
>THAMASO MA JYOTHIR GAMAYA, From darkness, lead me to light, >MRITHYOR MA AMRITAM GAMAYA.From death, lead me to immortality.
>OM, SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI. Om, Peace Peace Peace.
Yes, Yes, Yes!

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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 16:19:22 -0800
From: "Wim Borsboom" Subject: Re: [K-list] Goodbye

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0088_01BF514F.4CBD3DC0 Content-Type: text/plain;
 charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dor,=20
Well, there you go... Thank you for the chance to have met you.
Ah ... future.... Is your chip not K2 friendly... clocking out before cyberic oblivion?
Love,
Wim=20
------=_NextPart_000_0088_01BF514F.4CBD3DC0 Content-Type: text/html;
 charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dor,
Well, there = you=20
go... Thank you for the chance to have met =
you. Ah ... future....
Is your chip not K2 friendly... clocking out before = cyberic=20
oblivion?  
Love, Wim 
------=_NextPart_000_0088_01BF514F.4CBD3DC0--

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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 18:35:48 +0000
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