To: K-list
Recieved: 1999/12/21 12:39
Subject: [K-list] Suffering as lllusion?
From: winter mute

On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:58:31 GCWein1111 wrote:

El:
> Some people extract perceptual realities from one level and try to impose
> them on another.

Yes, that is a correct observation.

Jerry:
>of the "suffering is an illusion" message. Maybe it is accurate on one level
>of reality, but in most respects this is not the level at which life is lived
>on this planet.

It depends on how you see it.
To most living organisms
animal or other,
there is suffering
in the form of lack, lack of food,
lack of shelter, lack of possibilities of
procreation, because nature does not
operate on a plenty principle.
There are limited amounts of energy and thus
living organisms must compete for material
and for shelter / good living conditions.
But seen another way, all organisms take this
"suffering" without calling it suffering.
Is it then suffering ?
Or are we using our ways of seeing things
to label an existence we know little about,
as in re. anthropomorphy.

Jerry:
>Mother Teresa
>didn't stand over the suffering masses of Calcutta and condescendingly
>explain to them that they weren't really suffering after all.

Of course not. All beings suffer, in one way
or another and they deserve compassion
equally.

But spirituality as you call is has
many sides. As you yourself mentioned
on this list a few weeks ago,
some saints have been known to spread
what we today would call suffering through
their faith. But they also have done "good".

My kung fu teacher once told me that kung fu
is like a knife, it can be used to cut
but also to heal. There are two sides to the
coin. The saint Jerry mentioned some posts
ago did some swordswinging for god, but
she was also famous for her medical practice,
which was intended to heal.

>Jesus' words would not have been remembered if he hadn't - by
>taking his place on the cross- joined humanity in fully experiencing
>suffering. l don't know what Jesus said while on the cross, but l've never
>heard that he shrugged off the pain.

By action, not by word. He experienced
pain but
never clung to it, an important reminder to
us all.
     
>l only know how the
>"suffering is illusion" message comes across, and that even if it is true on
>one level, this is not the message the world needs to hear. lt has its
>place, but as a mantra it gets old fast - especially to someone who's
>suffering.
Of course.

My view on the suffering, illusion and
Kundalini question which has been up on the
list is that suffering also belongs to
the Proprietor,
whether it is caused by Kundalini or
otherwise.

When seen from a certain point of view,
suffering and pain, physical or emotional, is
energy going through the mind/body,
all emotions are.
Signaling going through the mindbody.
Ask someone who's hit their thumb with a hammer
if not the fly in their eye moves the
impression of pain and
attention elsewhere.

When watching the latest James Bond movie
one week ago, the bad guy was presented as
not being able to feel physical pain due to
a shot wound in the head and thus able to
"press himself harder and further than any
other man". I was a bit surprised at this
image. Someone who does not feel physical pain
may be labeled evil as he is not able to
feel the same things as "normal" ppl.

In one way I guess it is understandable.

:) Funny, pain was experienced
last night because of
the recent inability to feel much pain.
Like others are now needed to experience
pain through.

Best regards,

Amanda.

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