kundalini-l-d Digest				Volume 96 : Issue 246 

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 
From: JimBATNOSPAMpitnet.net (Jim B)
Subject: Re: Kundalini and chi

>I'm not really a practicing Taoist.  My spiritual path is Christianity; my
>Shakti Master is Jesus Christ, whose gift of love/energy we call the Holy
>Spirit.  Nevertheless, the experiences of chi/prana etc. are quite vivid,
>and, I would maintain, distinct (although not separate from)  from the Holy
>Spirit.  My understanding thus far has been that chi is a field of subtle
>energy (an etheric field) between spirit and matter, as it were, providing
>a kind of interface between the two, and a means by which spirit acts upon
>matter.

I agree whole-heartedly.  However, IMHO, matter is itself entirely of
spirit, and K is matter "alchemized" back into its original state.  This
said, the relational nature of chi becomes more clear.  Sort of like
Charlton Heston playing the role of Moses, and then the guy in Planet of
the Apes, when all along his nature is divine.   ;^)

>I know that many on the list are more interested in the practical
>than the theoretical aspects of this, to which I would say that the
>practical implications concerns what we pay attention to on our spiritual
>pathway.  I know people who spend hours each day working with chi, and with
>many good consequences.  To attend to the realm of spirit--especially the
>divine--is a different pathway which orders chi, to some extent (I do see
>the value of what I call "etheric hygeine") while emphasizing more the
>issues of intentionality, relationship, and character (which is not to say
>that these are de-valued in other pathways).

Chi kung begins by purifying the physical body, then develops the energy
body, in which is finally born the spiritual body.  The same basic steps as
tantric yoga.  But certainly there are more direct routes!

>Lee Sannella is the author of "The Kundalini Experience," one of the first
>books from the West to see the process as inherently transformative, and to
>distinguish its "dark nights" from psychoses.
->
>Peace.  Phil

Thanks, I'll have to give that book a gander!

Jim



Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 
From: CGIAJWATNOSPAMaol.com
Subject: Re: Breakthrough

This is a reply more to Debi than about Dan

Prejudice for the most part is a bad quality, a stumbling block which we need
to overcome.  It is however completely natural.  In an earlier posting, I
mentioned how to be enlightened we needed to loose the knowledge that all
chairs have the same function, and are inanimate.  But this is a thing which
we must learn as children to operate in this particular reality.  This is a
trait we must and do learn as extremely young children.  Animals must learn
to identify what will eat them, what they should and should not eat.  Failier
to do so will result in death!  We have been born with this trait, and
perhaps it relates to the "knowledge" gained in the garden of eden.  If I, a
young white middle class male from the subburbs decide to go into the "slums"
late at night, I should expect to get mugged or beaten up.  Being a male I'm
very lucky, as I'm sure a young white woman would risk rape and murder.  What
I'm trying to say is that It is a natural instict for us to look after our
own wellbeing, and that to do so we classify people based on their looks.  If
I see a well dressed black man, I don't worry, but If that same man dressed
up in ganster/ drug dealer clothes, I would watch my back.  The person may
not have any ill intentions towards me, but I automatically see him as a
threat.  

I'm not trying to say that rascim, or any ism is good, but that it is natural
for us to have some isms.  We should not let them rule our lives, and we
should not perpetuate lessons of hate.  But isn't it natural for us to be
afraid of sharks and lions, shouldn't we be fearful of the preditors in our
lives?

Everybody should be as nice to eachother as they can
Play Nice

Aaron 



Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 
From: debi 
Subject: Re: Breakthrough
-
At 11:29 AM 11/20/96 -0500, you wrote:
>This is a reply more to Debi than about Dan
>
>Prejudice for the most part is a bad quality, a stumbling block which we need
>to overcome.  It is however completely natural.  In an earlier posting, I
>mentioned how to be enlightened we needed to loose the knowledge that all
>chairs have the same function, and are inanimate.  But this is a thing which
>we must learn as children to operate in this particular reality.  This is a
>trait we must and do learn as extremely young children.  Animals must learn
>to identify what will eat them, what they should and should not eat.  Failier
>to do so will result in death! 
 We have been born with this trait,
*******Born to pre-judge? Isn't that a cultural thing?
 and
>perhaps it relates to the "knowledge" gained in the garden of eden.  If I, a
>young white middle class male from the subburbs decide to go into the "slums"
>late at night, I should expect to get mugged or beaten up.  Being a male I'm
>very lucky, as I'm sure a young white woman would risk rape and murder.  What
>I'm trying to say is that It is a natural instict for us to look after our
>own wellbeing, and that to do so we classify people based on their looks.  If
>I see a well dressed black man, I don't worry, but If that same man dressed
>up in ganster/ drug dealer clothes, I would watch my back.  The person may
>not have any ill intentions towards me, but I automatically see him as a
>threat.  
>
>I'm not trying to say that rascim, or any ism is good, but that it is natural
>for us to have some isms.  We should not let them rule our lives, and we
>should not perpetuate lessons of hate.  But isn't it natural for us to be
>afraid of sharks and lions, shouldn't we be fearful of the preditors in our
>lives?
>
>Everybody should be as nice to eachother as they can
>Play Nice
>Aaron 
>
>
Perhaps the key word here was Prdjudice. Pre-judge. To be open to the 
different function of the chairs is to be aware.
Animals eating is not predjudice.
Safety is another factor - going into the slums is a safety thing -
not so much a predjudicial thing.
Perhaps our different perspectives are more a semantic thing?
"Even afraid of sharks and lions" is not predjudice - it is respect.
I am not afraid of sharks and lions - I respect them and their territory.
I swim in the ocean - I live in Florida - but I don't ask for trouble. 
I go into the woods where animals live - but I do not disturb them.
But I don't think of that as prejudice.

Maybe we are going with a different definition of predjudice?
-
Sorry - but it is a sensitive issue to me. I love people - all 
people - and the kids have shared too much of the pain caused by
this issue. 
Even as a nurse, working with Hospice, some of my patients, especially
AIDS patients, have experienced too much of this pain in their lives.

Just my opinion,
Love,
debi
-


Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 
From: Juliet 
Subject: Re: Neo-Nazis on the Internet

Freedom of speech.


-
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 
From: Jan Watson 
Subject: Re: Kundalini and chi

Hello All!

I've resisted and resisted being drawn into this and now my threshold is 
too low to continue, so this hat is in the ring.  

Because I tend to think analogically, please let me make one here.

Is the love of a child the same as the love of a mother as the love of a 
teacher or a Teacher or of a husband or wife?  Each varies in type and 
intensity from minute to minute, day to day, yer to year.  Each is made 
up of 'strands' which vary from person to person in degree of 
application such as doing, saying, feeling, giving....So, its 
manifestation is unique to both the person given, and the person 
receiving.   Each however in its Being has a common"Essence" that we 
"FEEL/KNOW" when it is True.
-
What if that is the case here?  What if we are talking about the same 
thing in its smaller aspects whereas it is all part of a larger whole 
that Christians refer to as the manifestation of the Holy Spririt and
other religions/cultures call by a different name.  K is but one of the 
major strands, chi is a strand and so they are all the same, but in a 
different form; a less or more condensed form of the Essence of Life that 
we "FEEL/KNOW" that all the language in the world cannot reveal through 
argumentation.  (The poets amongst us have contributed wonderfully in 
this respect).  
-
What if I called the experience the "love of the wind for the waves as it 
scoops it into its arms" (as did my teacher) or .... 

Add one of your own?  I'd love to read other peoples analogies for their 
vision of K / Chi / Holy Spirit / Shaktipat / Baraka ...

Does the poet not mediate between heaven and earth when others cannot?

My own:
-
My Beloved is the weaver of the golden cloak I wear agianst my heart's 
nakedness.

I can hardly wait for tonight to read those of others, to be touched by 
the beauty of those here...

jan


-
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 
From: Jan Watson 
Subject: Re: internal address changed pl

SEMAPHORE wrote:
>
> Mail*Link=AE SMTP               RE>emergency
>
> Hello  Eileen
->
> I would very much like to learn more about the Mirror Consciousness, th=
e
> Witness Consciousness.  You seem to have some control over its
> appearance.  How did you come to that point? Can you help others learn?
> It sounds so much like the mirror of stories my grandmother told me of
> and I read of as a child and the mirror in the poetry of Omar Khayam an=
d
> Rumi and....  Thank you
>
> jan
>



Hi

Can someone help me? I'm not technically proficient enough to understand
what this is all about or how a posting from this list could end up at so=

many doorsteps?????

Thanks

jan



Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 
From: stampmanATNOSPAMix.netcom.com (Daniel Rusch-Fischer )
Subject: Re: Breakthrough

*****Dan wrote: This is an account of overcoming prejudice - prejudice 
exists to protect us, to help us identify otherness, to separate that 
which is familiar and generally safe from that which is unfamiliar and 
potentially harmful. Overcoming this most natural of human behaviors 
would require intellect by my earlier assumptions, yet it operates on 
an emotional level.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
^^^^^Debi wrote: No, No, and NO! Children are not born predjudice - it 
is not until they "learn" this "natural" behaviour that they even 
realize a "difference". And predjudice does not protect us - it 
separates us and denies us the opportunity to know others - their 
cultures, their beliefs, their experiences. How many people on this 
list fit into the "unfamiliar and potentially harmful" category? I am 
Jewish - is that one? You listed "gay queen" - is he potentially 
harmful?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Debi, I understand what you are saying, but, perhaps because of the
    brevity of my post, you missed what I meant. Of course a
-    baby comes unprejudiced into this world. If it had no innate
    ability to develop prejudices it could not exist for long. This
    innate process is not infallible - please note CAREFULLY the words
    'generally' and 'potentially'. Let me elucidate with two examples
    that have less 'charge' to them. One of the first prejudices that
    a baby develops is the association of a pleasant tone of voice, a
    smiling face, and friendly eyes with the warmth, love, comfort, and
    safety of its mothers care. We carry that with us our whole lives
    and how many times has it served us well in our relationships, and
    how many times has it been used as a weapon against us: by the dis-
-    honest salesman with the warm handshake, smile, and soothing
    patter; by the abusive spouse with the smile, eyes, and voice that
    melts asking for another chance. This prejudice serves to give us
    a feeling for that which is 'familiar and generally safe'.

    A second example is my mother's family, the Jensens. They all have
    a similar facial characteristic that is not immediately noticeable,
    but serves to alienate some instinctively because of a prejudice.
    The Jensens to a person have 'no lips'. Actually, the fleshy part
    of their lips is a very thin line. Facial expressions for pain,
-    joy, amusement, etc. are universal within the family of man. When a
    person is open, receptive, sensual, they tend to have everted lips.
    When they close up, become unreceptive, withdrawn, etc. they tend
    to pull their lips inward creating a thinner lipline. The Jensens,
    because of their naturally thin lips are seen by strangers as cold,
    hard, and lacking in emotions. This is just natural and the way it
    is. One may not like it, but it is wired into the human psyche. It
    also tells us when someone should be avoided because they are angry
    and 'potentially dangerous'. Also recognizing otherness allows one
    the ease that comes with being part of a sameness; i.e. sameness
-    familiarity no wasted investment in 'checking them out' =
    'generally safe'. These are the natural prejudices of which I was
    speaking - and yes, it extends beyond the instinctive, reflex
    reactions, but comes from the same place within all of us.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
^^^^^Debi wrote: Every year I am a volunteer nurse/advisor for Camp 
Anytown - a week long camp put on by National COnference of Christains 
and Jews.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
    What a wonderfully admirable thing to do. THIS is what will make a
-    difference that will CHANGE the world more than a thousand Simon
    Wiesenthal Centers hunting down decrepit Nazis. When will people
    realize that trying to quell the Nazis will only build them up. I
    recently wrote to another on the list that the strength of the 
    Jewish people has COME from the Babylonian Captivity, the Diaspora,
    and the Holocaust. These have NOT diminished them as was intended,
    instead it has strengthened them, magnified them, and unified them.
    These apparently horrible tribulations have been among the great
    blessings that their God has given them. There are more Jews alive
    on earth today, in better circumstances, in the four corners of the
-    earth (yes, there is an enclave of Jews in Peking!) worshipping
    Hashem Adonai and keeping Mitzvah than at any other time in all
    of history. The Jewish population of just New York City could
    nearly replenish the decimation of the Holocaust.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
^^^^^Debi wrote: There is a new news group - neo-Natzi - beginning on 
the net - to teach hate to the young ones - I will forward that letter 
to this group - and hopefully realize that predjudice is not natural, 
but THAT is potentially dangerous!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-    My opinion is this: I wouldn't go there! To try to quell inanity,
    fear, hatred, etc. by denying it expression is to give it validity,
    make it attractive as something forbidden, to allow it to be
    nourished in the dark recesses of damaged souls. When allowed free
    expression, it is exposed to the light of other's reason. True, not
    all will respond to that reason, but some will. It will also let us
    know what feelings (right or wrong) actually exist. Not knowing is
    a great danger. Would you be surprised to know that some of the
    Warburgs were early supporters of the Nazis as were a number of the
    more conservative, wealthy, German Jews. Nazis were seen as
-    beneficial to the business owner in that they opposed Unions and
    that most evil of all political entities; Communism.

    I hope that I don't sound too preachy, but I do genuinely feel that
    using 'social jiujitsu' and letting these people hang themselves 
    will do more to diminish them then a gaggle of gag attempts. Just
    think about how people were reviled by the Nazis marching in
    Skokie. Sure there were a number of sadly deficient souls that need
    this sort of extrovert hatred to validate their empty lives. Let
    them strut in Skokie; the rest of us just pity them - AND make a
-    mental note that they, indeed, are out there. AND are just that
    little bit more prepared for having seen them. I say vote FOR their
    White Power Music Newsgroup and watch them carefully.
    
    Namaste, but disagree,

    Love and LAUGHING LIGHT,
    Dan-RF


-
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 
From: traveler 
Subject: Re: Breakthrough

>I'm not trying to say that rascim, or any ism is good, but that it is natural
>for us to have some isms.  We should not let them rule our lives, and we
>should not perpetuate lessons of hate.  But isn't it natural for us to be
>afraid of sharks and lions, shouldn't we be fearful of the preditors in our
>lives?
->
I see prejudice as reflecting a certain stage of consciousness. When we are
born we have none, we are merged with everything around us. As we get older,
we learn to separate ourselves from our parents but still have identity with
our clan, larger family, etc; as we mature even more we can separate
ourselves enough to see our belonging to the family of humankind; and as we
get even more conscious, we see our connectedness to all of life; as we go
further, we see our connectedness to energy and matter, and our
connectedness to the holy spirit....ec...

Dan I call what you acquired x-ray vision, and that is one of the first
differenes I noticed when I had my K-A. I think it is an excellent sign, a
gift to both you and others.

Best, traveler



Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 
From: redormanATNOSPAMplix.com (Dorman, Robert )
Subject: Pacemakers & K

I just had a thought. About a month ago there was alot of discussion
about burning out light bulbs and microwave ovens and crashing computers
by persons having wild K experiences. What do you suppose would happen
to someone whearing a pacemaker if he were around someone experiencing
such a K-attac? Suppose he had one himself!:(  Just some thoughts.
--Bob
P.S. Automobile computer-controlled ignition systems? Must be hard to
drive.
-


Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 
From: traveler 
Subject: Re: Breakthrough

Debi, 

As I see it, prejudice is just pre-judgement. We all have pre-judgements;
they are the policies we set for ourselves so we don't have to be occupied
with thinking out each circumstance anew; we can learn from our past and
from the experience of other, and be safer and freer to focus our attention.

It is not the pre-judgment that is bad, because we all have it, like it or
not. There is no way to be human and not have prejudices. At best, we can
have them, discover them consciously, and repudiate them. 

X-ray vision (in my mind) works in the opposite direction: it sees through
the pre-judgements to a deeper, less superficial level. But in so doing, it
too must acknowledge something to see beyond. So I think it is healthy to
aknowledge our prejudices...lots of people are in denial about it. We all
have prejudices about race, religion, gender, etc. If we didn't we would be
Buddha (or someone like that)...Our prejudices are our limitations to love
and we all have them. Some have them much more than others, but we all have
them as part of the human condition.

 For me life is about discovering them and being willing to see beyond them.
As I do this, in time, my pre-judgments may change, if what I get are
positive experiences.
-
I have committed my life to opening my heart to people of all types; some
days I do better than others, yet the commitment remains. So some days I
have more pre-judgement than others. The prejudgments that cause me to block
off my heart to love, beauty, and the miracle of human existence come  at my
expense. The prejudgements that get me home safe at night---I think I will
keep them.

Best, traveler

-

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 
From: hyperATNOSPAMhmt.com (HyperMedia Technologies)
Subject: Thankyou!

Thank you all for your kind words. I believe I'll reply individually to
your posts. It will take a little time, since I'm sort of playing hookey to
do this.

If I see a common thread running through any posts, I'll post something
about it on the list. (assuming I know anything about it.)

I've been off the list since early summer, but between then and now I have
received Shaktipat twice.

My experience with Shaktipat last month was so extraordinary that I'm still
assessing the effects.

I was personally able to verify that if one approaches the Shakti Master
with as large a container as one can imagine, a very stong desire for
grace, and as pure a mentality as one can muster, Shakti can be 'drawn' to
one thru the Shakti Master by one's own will.

It proves to me that a force much, much, greater than the Shakti Master is
at work (which I have been assuming is the case)  and that the Shakti
Master actually is a vehicle (transducer?) for the Shakti.

The event even startled the Shakti Master. That was the sign the Shakti
gave to me, because I have to PROVE EVERYTHING for myself. It was nothing
less than sensational.

It worked so well, in fact, that my only regret is that I brought a 'large
container', which has size, rather than an 'infinitely large' container
which is sizeless.

I'm starting to suspect that as far as Shakti is concerned, that throwing
your cup into the ocean rather than trying to fit the ocean into your cup
is the way to go.

The post  I made to the list was Chaitanya (alive). Filled with Shakti. It
just poured out. It was a gift to all of you. I found it quite stimulating
to write.


I'll write my personal little story down for you all eventually.

******

Regarding Ki / Chi / Shakti, they are the same. The seemingly different
forms or vibratory states of it are a result of the degrees of contraction
or conditioning of the pure concious Shakti.

 Grace is also Shakti, but it's uncontracted, unconditioned Shakti. All
objects and forms in the phenomenal world are contracted, conditioned
Shakti. It's the energy in atoms. The 'seething mass of nothingness' that
makes up quarks, which make up protons, neutrons and electrons, which make
up atoms, which make up molecules.....etc. which make up galaxies,
galactic clusters, great clusters, and superclusters of Galaxies stretching
half a billion light years long. It makes everything come alive.
-
I have practiced an undiluted Okinawan martial art for 21 years that traces
its lineage back to Daruma, (Bodhidharma) the Buddhist monk who brought
Buddhism from Tibet to China. I can focus and direct Ki. Have been able to
for years.

True martial arts is very spiritual and very private. It has nothing to do
with self defense, etc.Those are mere spin-off effects. Kata, (the forms),
are the heart of the practice. My organization is non-profit and we
instruct for free. It keeps purity of technique, and more importantly keeps
the purity of the mentality transmitted with the techniques. No money = no
dilution. Great care is taken to transmit the art it as it was transmitted
to us, down through the centuries of time. No changes are made.

After Shaktipat, my entire martial art practice made a quantum leap forward
immediately. My martial practice is my main measuring tool. How my body
moves, tells me where my mentality is at, and vice versa.

Grace (Shaktipat) caused everything in the stew to mature out so
dramatically, instantly, that even I am impressed, and it takes a lot to
impress me.

My ability to read intentions also took a quantum leap. Reading intentions
is  really the secret of martial arts. That, and understanding the Maa.
The Maa is the distance between you and the opponent. It is an elipse which
changes with each opponent depending on their size and shape. The Maa is a
mental concept until you actually see the opponent. Then the Maa becomes
physical. The one who knows the Maa has control of the situation.
Overcoming or avoiding the opponent without a physical confrontation is a
much higher level of the art.
-
The art is 99% mental and 1% physical. You wouldn't even need the physical,
except you need a vehicle to express the mentality thru.

I also find that the Shakti moves much more strongly after I have done a
set of kata and asanas and then sit for meditation.



Thanks again.
-
Martin



Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 
From: Peter Norton 
Subject: Re: Breakthrough

Dan, 
What a wonderful description of really seeing into people's humanity!

I had a slight experience of this for about 3 days after my own 
temporary experience of K.  Initially, it was wonderful to
see the people at the meditation retreat in this new way,
since they were all joyous, luminous beings,
but then returning to the 'world' it was such a shock to see 
the pain and suffering so transparently evident in everyone, 
that I couldn't look anyone directly in the face.  
I prayed for it to go away, and it did.
-
I have since read a description of it in 
'Shobogenzo' by Dogen that goes something like:

"What it is like on this path, is to be unstained.
 It is like _seeing_ someone and not noticing what they _look_ like.
 But being unstained cannot be intended at all."
-Dogen

so maybe to be without prejudice is to be 'unstained'?
how wonderful that there is such a possibilty of dropping
all prejudice and allowing people to be as they are.
we just have to be strong enough to take all the pain, I guess.

cheers



Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 
From: Jan Watson 
Subject: Re: Thankyou!

Martin  wrote:
>
> I have practiced an undiluted Okinawan martial art for 21 years

> I also find that the Shakti moves much more strongly after I have done a
> set of kata and asanas and then sit for meditation.
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> Martin


Hi all

Ironic.  When my K was fully released, shortly afterward, the K in my 
then husband, a marial arts instructor who excelled at Kata and control 
of Maa, had his inadvertently and prematurely released by my presense 
and his physical predisposition. Gopi Krishna was right, it is dangerous; 
the ensuing mental instability still characterizes him and even Dr. Kason 
has been of little help there...  But then, he was in the habit of 
stealing energy systematically anyway.  Inadvertent justice perhaps?

Your post just put this all together for me.  Thanks Martin.

jan